One of the thoughtful comments received here after the Cambridge Hilton event on 28 February essentially embraced this idea:
Could we create somewhere to talk to each other?
That deserves a proper reply.
First, there was a real sense that a community was developing around the Funding the Future work in discussion at Cambridge. But the comment raised a deeper issue: how do we, in that case, create places where that community can actually talk?
I think this matters for a number of reasons.
1 - Ideas need conversations to grow
Political economy is not a spectator sport. If we are going to challenge the myths of neoliberalism:
- the household budget story,
- the nonsense about tax funding spending,
- the idea that social security is a burden rather than a collective insurance scheme,
then people need somewhere to test ideas together.
2 - Events are not enough
A talk in Cambridge, or maybe Leeds next time, is good. But a single lecture does not build a movement. Conversations do.
3 - Many people feel out of their depth
I completely understand the point made about networking over tea and coffee feeling awkward. Events can be intimidating. That is not what we want. We want a politics of care, not a politics of hierarchy. So the suggestion of a social element, including coffee beforehand, a drink afterwards, or some way to connect between events, is entirely reasonable.
The constraint
This being said, I have to be honest: we cannot run another platform at present. Between the blog, YouTube channel, other channels, podcasts, Substack, downloads, events, the glossary, and the constant research and writing that underpins all of it, there is no significant spare capacity to moderate or manage another online community. Much as I like the idea, and I do, it is not something we can take on, and most definitely alone.
So what might work?
There are several possibilities that do not require us to run them.
1 - Reader-organised local groups
If people in Cambridge, Sheffield and elsewhere want to meet, that is great news. It is exactly how real communities form. I am keen to encourage such groups. Make them relaxed, and that helps everyone. Then share notes on what works, please.
2 - A closed Facebook group
This might be another practical option. It allows discussion, volunteer moderation, and some privacy. It does not require us to build infrastructure or manage membership lists. But it does require active moderators who will sanction those who abuse.
3 - WhatsApp or Signal groups organised locally
Small local groups can also work very well. They are easier to manage and often more supportive. But they also require moderation and enthusiasm.
4 - Use the YouTube community tab or blog comments as signposts
People could post: “Does anyone in Leeds (or wherever) want to meet?” So long as respondents give permission to share email addresses, we can do that. In other words, the community can grow organically. It does not need to be run from the centre.
Why this matters politically
We talk a lot here about the politics of care. Care is relational. It happens between people. And if we are to build an alternative to neoliberalism, and one based on cooperation, social security, public investment, and sustainable well-being, then we need spaces where people can talk to each other, learn together, and organise together.
Not everything has to be done by one person or one blog. In fact, it cannot be.
So here is the question
What do you think would work?
-
Would a closed Facebook group be useful?
-
Would local reader-organised meet-ups work?
-
Would a simple mailing list linking local organisers help?
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Do you have other ideas?
And, crucially, would anyone be willing to help organise such things?
And when commenting, please make sure to give me permission to share your contact details.
Because the reality is this: we can provide ideas, analysis, and discussion here on Funding the Future and on YouTube. But communities are built by the people who are part of them.
So please let me know your thoughts. We can then go from there - or, as importantly, you can.
I am not offering a poll: this one requires comments.
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I suggest that different things will work in different areas and/of for different people.
Might be worth looking at the birth of the Labour Party. It seems that there were all sorts of ‘social groups’ formed – Labour Cycling Clubs etc.
Its a good idea though we all have our strengths and weakness’s and this might achieve I suggest two things firstly to keep the ideas going in a ‘Post Richard’ world and to provide a more comprehensive coverage of ideas than one person could ever manage.
Thanks
I fully get you don’t have capacity for more platforms and a Facebook group would require very active moderation and volunteers you really trust. However local groups will leave those of us too far from your events totally out of the loop. I’m in rural Devon and unless things are online it’s really not practical. A moderated forum might work, again with volunteer help.
I do volunteer at Greenbelt Festival every August and this is somewhere you would find many like minded people. It’s officially a Christian media and arts festival, but it also has a huge social justice side with talks and panels etc. Not everyone has a faith and many are on the fringes. Last year I heard Carla Denyer and Jeremy Corbyn speak and Kate Raworth was there. Several years ago Caroline Lucas was there and did an amazing panel on the future of democracy here with Rowan Williams and Paul Mason. As with many festivals there’s lots of space to meet informally. It’s a special place and people come back year after year and I’m now volunteering with the children of parents who have taken them. You would be the kind of speaker they would like.
I have done it…
A Closed Facebook Group is my ideal.
I already run one quite successfully for genealogy.
The only problem maybe people’s aversion to Meta?
Soemtimes we have to hold our noses.
I may be less willing to hold my nose than most, but I would not be reached via a Facebook group. I left Facebook and Instagram years ago (and Twitter, as soon as it was Elongated). I use WhatsApp only under protest. Ideally we need something based on this side of the Atlantic, and open source.
Noted
I would be happy to be part of a closed Facebook group, perhaps as an administrator and would also be interested in occasional meet ups in the West Midlands.
A suggestion/caution…
That if we are considering social media platforms for private sharing and strategising, we think twice before using those owned and controlled by our techbro oligarch opponents. I personally wouldn’t participate in a WhatsApp or Facebook group, although I have a non-active pseudonymous FB a/c purely to enable me to access content that requires a login, usually via a VPN. I’ve used closed Signal groups instead of WhatsApp, which worked okay.
We also have to be aware that any group on any platform is only as secure as the individuals within it – groups get infiltrated, either by “sleepers” or when agendas cause divisions, and then they leak, and leaks get used for smears and takedowns – look at the political parties! So group admin needs care, with one admin (not shared) who can control access, and evict individuals, delete material or deactivate the group. Access to the groups would need a vetting process, and ought not to be available to unknown newcomers.
I’m not paranoid, merely experienced at being the subject, as a former digital privacy campaigner, of hostile targeted individual surveillance by private corporations (national telcos and their crooked sidekicks), and organs of the state, and also having experienced doxing and smearing by a disgruntled fellow campaigner who went rogue to feather his own career, and another who threatened me with false allegations me while suffering a mental health crisis. When your job and professional reputation can be destroyed by one malicious false allegation, it is v stressful, and you learn to be careful. These things happen regularly and they can happen to us. The more successful we are in spreading ideas about the politics of care, the more others will “care” about smearing, dividing or neutralising us.
But the idea is a good one in principle. One of the big mistakes YourParty made, and is still making, is that like Labour, they promised grassroots organisation, then the apparatchiks did all in their power to prevent it happening at local level. So 800,000 supporters became a rump of 55,000 squabbling disgruntled members fighting over rival slates.
Will it help make the world a better place?
Can it be abused?
Who might abuse it?
How?
How can we contain that abuse?
KUTGW!
So, might I ask a question Robert? What would you prefer? You’re clearly not a fan of Facebook. I use it it, but it is clunky, and there is also the issue of meta to deal with. But what are the alternatives? Signal? I’ve not used it, but I know many people who have hate it. Or discord?
Once upon a time, of course, they were just email servers as well. I think they are now history. Do you have an opinion?
Aah – that’s where I am less able to help – I’m far too out of date. “In my day” it was phpBB web forums, and simple html church or foodbank websites written in Komposer, with a little cut and paste php website scripting to occupy and entertain my digital stalkers – but that was > a decade ago. Now it takes all my energy to learn Linux Mint, Libre Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, build a home server, and try to understand how to keep a Samsung android phone secure but useable.
I use Mastodon occasionally but can’t recommend it, mainly because I don’t understand how the different servers communicate, and I don’t think I ever will.
I haven’t mastered or fully understood Signal yet, and it IS confusing – and constant group notifications do get v irritating.. I’m no longer part of a group on it as I stepped down from the volunteer activity that ran a closed Signal group, I just use it now spradically for family contact. Caring responsibilities mean I’m fairly limited, and nowadays I’m focussed on individuals locally (walking distance) rather than institutions and groups.
Sorry not to be more helpful. I suppose my main contribution is to highlight the technical and personal aspects of security (but not as a techie), surveillance and sabotage – not v cheerful I know – and the grim reality that when a state actor or large corporate, or Labour Together and their special friends, want to get you, they can, and you won’t know about it.
I repeat, I support the idea in principle.
Thanks, and understood!
I am much in favour of small groups meeting in person, although I can see how people living far from others would find this impossible. In my experience small groups can sometimes come up with ideas that none of the participants would manage alone. They can also be quarrelsome, wearing, and soon break up.
I live in Sheffield, and am happy to share my email address. I am also prepared to host a meeting in person just to evaluate the merits of this idea. I’m not very mobile at the moment, as I recently gave up driving until I’ve had a cataract op. I hope that if there are blog readers in Sheffield, they will contact me.
Hi Richard,
Thank you for your comprehensive reply to my comment.
I agree with all of the points you have raised above.
Initial thoughts:
Mailing list – yes.
Meet-ups – yes.
I have heard positive things about Facebook groups. However, it is no longer a platform I use.
I don’t know how many of your readers know of or use Discord? I believe this platform would be best but there is an initial learning curve – nothing a ‘How To Use Discord’ YouTube video couldn’t fix, though. I currently moderate a community of 1,500 people so I am happy to create and moderate one, but would very much like a fellow moderator.
I am happy to co-moderate a WhatsApp group, though I have no experience of creating one of these so would be keen to have some initial help during setup.
I am happy for my email to be shared, but not on your site (though I don’t think this is what you are suggesting). I can create another email address for this purpose if needed.
Thanks again.
Many thanks for your response, Victoria.
I have not thought of discord, although I have, very occasionally, used it. I am well aware that my sons are very familiar with it. Let me have a discussion with Thomas before I go any further with that idea. It may be the answer, but as you say, they would be a degree of unfamiliarity to overcome, but I am sure that might be possible.
I have met, I find large WhatsApp groups extremely irritating. Small ones are fine. Beyond that, I hate the constant interruptions so I am not excited by that possibility.
I completely agree with you on the WhatsApp front.
I’m happy to have a chat with either yourself or Thomas if that would be of any help? Can be an email exchange, can be a call… I’m not particularly fussed and I’m reasonably flexible.
I am concentrating on Rachel Reeves right now….
I will talk to Thomas later but I have to concentrate on what she is about to say and going on the BBC now.
But, thank you!
Makespace has used a Google Group for many years. I hate to say it, but it works well. The primary mode is email, but you can elect only to receive periodic summaries, or even just use the web interface, which looks a bit like an email account. We could also consider spinning off special-interest channels where appropriate.
Are there any similar open-source and/or European-based alternatives, I wonder? I’ll do a little research.
We will also look at that.
I’d be happy to hold my nose for a closed facebook group.
Thanks for this Richard. How do we extend our conversations to amplify our messages. If I zoom out from FTF I see lots of other nascent or more mature groups based around complementary ideas as ftf. Sustainability in particular but also political/systemic change. The list is long and the collective must be a LOT of ppl. A closed fb group for ‘us’ sounds great. It would be an echo chamber for sure AND ALSO a place where we share build ideas and confidence in creating change. For me a question is rather than create a new eco system of local groups, how we connect and expand together with other local groups. A challenge in itself but seem to me a quick way to amplify and build momentum. ,
Discord might allow this. We are investigating it.
I could hold my nose for FaceBook but would much prefer not to if there is a viable alternative. I could be persuaded to help with admin / moderation.
Thanks Helen.
Tom is looking at Discord right now.
I use discord for a couple of readers’ groups, it’s ok, once you get used to the odd layout. However, they now are being pressured into age indication and have a lousy company involved that has already lost people’s information. Government pressure is on them to use digital IDs and age verification, for a readers’ group that reads Victorian fiction. The excuse , if you’ve nothing to his what’s the problem and “it’s to protect the children” is wearing thin. What happened to privacy? Starmer seems to want access to our photos, emails, and to stop use of VPNs. Anyway, I just thought you need to know that this is in the air, and Discord seems likely to comply. You have enough to do take on a new outlet and it would be disappointing, if it was not a success.
Finally, I thought you did a grand job today, and the content was as excellent as ever. Thanks.
Thanks.
I admit, I am not in love with Discord.
And, thank you.
An online forum with a number of topic categories could work – I would suggest inviting other experts to participate and maybe calling it MMT for all or such like. The downside is that such forum interfaces feel rather old-school now but there may be some that don’t look too clunky. There’s bound to a couple of volunteers worldwide who would manage it.
Here’s one: https://www.proboards.com
Facebook is OK for here today gone tomorrow topics but that’s about it.
Also, I use several Reddit forums and it’s pretty good.
Thanks
We will look at Proboards
Reddit is just too toxic to go near.
There a fair few of these forum hosts – other ones:
https://www.createaforum.com
https://circle.so
https://www.websitetoolbox.com
They have the advantage of also acting as a repository and archive as well as immediate discussions.
Some are free with added paid features, others have to have a sub.
You can embed the forum on your site too.
That is a lot to look at.
The last is very expensive.
Do you have experience of the others?
Thanks for this.
I don’t know if there would be enough people in and around Aberdeenshire to arrange a meet-up, although I’d be interested if there were. (Provided they don’t mind the village idiot attending- I make no pretence to the knowledge so many poster here have!)
Discord sounds interesting. For various reason I no longer use Facebook, so that would be a no.
Thanks
Hi Richard,
How about looking ‘close to home’?
1. Your website is built on WordPress. This is a free, open source Content Management System (CMS) that can be used for much more than a blog, see your designer Andy Moyle’s portfolio.
2. There are several free WordPress plugins available to handle discussion forum type activities. It’s also relatively easy to build a custom plugin if required.
3. A WordPress application can be hosted by any web host provider (preferably UK based), thus bypassing ‘big tech’. You may even have the capacity to create a sub-domain on the provider of your FTF website to host a separate discussion forum. I set up a WordPress based site for my Parish Council, then a separate site hosted as a (free) sub-domain for our Community Speedwatch Group. If this option is not available, it would be necessary to register a domain name for the site and rent hosting separately. Maybe this could be funded by a small contribution from its users.
4. I’m sure there are other FTF followers who would have the skills to help set up and manage such a forum.
Happy to discuss further if you think this option is worth investigating.
Neil. We need to look at all this. We will be. Thank you.
This blog seems to me to be the best way to keep everyone together. However, I wonder if there might be a way to put all the comments together on a single compenium each day? I only ever subscribe to a thread on which I have made a comment, so don’t neccessaily see something which might be crucial on another.
I used to be a member of a Positive Money local group which worked very well until our supreme leader decided to pack it in. There is another not too far away, but just too far for me to attend more than very occasionally. Probably RJM supporters are too far apart to set up any sort of regular in-person meeting.
I do use Facebook, but with trepidation, and rarely use any other social media.
Nigel
Would 100+ comments a day not connected to the ppst be useful?
I am not sure.
Isn’t it easier just to scan the site?
Richard
I’m still baffled as to how you can actually read 100+ comments a day albeit, I believe, speed-read. I find it too time-consuming to reopen every post then scan through the comments, and I don’t know where I left off. If I subscribe to a particular post I am notified of any additions as they come up with a link to the latest one. It would be easier if I could be notified of all new comments in one place. Unless there is a way to do that which I haven’t found.
There is not I am afraud
100 just fit in, where they can…
Have you considered Google Groups? I have used that in the past, but I understand that something called Slack is better. But whatever, I think what you’ve got now is adequate and anything in addition would only give you even more work unless you are prepared to delegate the moderation to a volunteer. It might work for local groups.
Moderation is going to have to include others.
Thanks, Nigel.
Hi Richard and Team, you might find exploring the Deep Adaptation Forum (link below) useful in terms of how it is structured and for a plethora of ideas of how it enables community members to connect. Although I am not part of it I have seen it grow and the website now looks very slick:
https://www.deepadaptation.info/letsgetconnected/
[Deep Adaptation Forum is a global community which emerged from Professor Jem Bendell’s academic paper 2018 & 2020) which explored societal disruption / collapse due to climate change and how to respond to it.]
Thanks, but it is not at all clear on what platform it is built.
viz https://www.deepadaptation.info/letsgetconnected/
Wordpress using the Yoast SEO plugin v27.0 – https://yoast.com/product/yoast-seo-wordpress/ by the looks of it.
right click> view page source with Mozilla
Thanks
I looked at Yoast tonight. I am intrigued. Thank you. I love learning.
Loomio is worth a look. Developed in New Zealand, hosted in EU… designed for discussions leading to decisions.
Tnomas is now on the case…
I’ve just confirmed that FtF would be eligible for the non-commercial rate for Lomio
Thanks
We are starting serious review of all the options.
For some time, I’ve been thinking about a more proactive, bottom-up approach, loosely aligned with what the Our Money Campaign is doing in the US (https://ourmoneyus.org/), but adapted to the UK.
The basic idea is simple: start a local group and bring people together, listen first, and gradually build a shared understanding of how the public money system actually works, while building a network of support that educates and advances the public debate.
If piloted locally, a sensible starting point might be informal outreach to a mix of voices, including residents and community groups, the local Healthwatch branch, Citizens Advice, food banks linked to The Trussell Trust, churches or Methodist circuits, GP Patient Participation Groups, PCN engagement leads, and interested councillors across parties. The mix would evolve naturally.
The purpose would be clear: to create a shared local learning space about how public money works and what that means for services in a constructive and non-confrontational way. It would be about helping people join the dots together.
I do wonder whether there is appetite for something like this locally, and how much work it would realistically take to carry out. I’m not sure how practical it would be in the UK context, but it might be worth exploring.
Noted
Bit for others to take forward
We are researching platforms
A Discord server could work. You can have various groups for talking about different topics a bit like a WhatsApp community, but you don’t need to share phone numbers like you do on WhatsApp.
Thanks
Similarly with Signal, groups don’t need to share phone numbers.
✅A presence at music festivals.
✅Contact with university economics/politics departments.
✅Contact with Trade Unions
✅Sending a copy of The Deficit Myth to every MP (together with a leaflet about basic economics)
✅Interviews with YouTube influencers
A) Not for me.
B) Being done. Bristol this weeks.
C) Possible.
D) Not for me.
E) Who?
As several have mentioned, a Discord server will cover many of the things needed. One note of caution is that since the OSA passed, photo ID is required for access. I’ve had to close my Discord account because (at 50) I cannot adequately prove that I am over 18 to their satisfaction (because you need something with your name, photo, and DoB). There is also the point that Discord is US-based, and therefore potentially compromised.
I have just found these guys, no idea on quality but might help with ideas: https://european-alternatives.eu/
That is a pain.
Hi Kaal,
This Discord link suggests that you do not need Photo ID and can take a ‘video selfie’ instead, which is deleted once verification is complete: https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/30326565624343-How-to-Complete-Age-Assurance-on-Discord
I understand not everyone owns a compatible smartphone but I’m hopeful that the majority do.
Anybody in Totnes/South Devon area available to meet up?
I’m rather techno-useless and don’t do any social media. Just not for me. I prefer to talk to/with people or groups.
I’m very much a Make Votes Matter …PR that is…man.
And I spend time on the allotment…where I’m free of all gadgets…and…I think!
Richard and team…please pass my email address to anyone who responds.
Hi! As my first comment on your blog, I should pause and say thanks for all your effort across all platforms, and thanks for a great event in Cambridge!
To your questions…
I’d attend a local meet-up if there was one in my city.
As for platforms for chat, I think several of the suggestions here could work. My slight preference would be for WhatsApp because it’s familiar to a lot of people already but the notifications could definitely be an issue so you’d likely want to:
– Trial it to see how it works (I think there’s 2 different ways to set it up, a group vs a community or something)
– Have small groups you can opt into or out of
– Have a central channel for occassional announcements
– Have a bunch of admins
– Configure your notification settings individually too
I don’t have any experience in setting any of this up, but I’d be willing to help out on moderation of the above if you get enough other volunteers to realistically give it a go.
I’m also happy to be a guinea pig user if you want to trial any platforms before making a decision.
(you can share my details privately too)
Thank you. All noted.
How about becoming a formal think-tank, with a permanent base – 54 Tufton Street would be a good place for an HQ?
🙂
I don’t have the technical knowledge to help, neither have I heard of any of the platforms mentioned other than FB.
I’m certainly in favour of anything that can spread the word.
You have my permission to use my email address if a suitable platform is available.
It is a source of immense frustration and anger to see our politicians hopelessly out of there depth, lacking any capacity to think for themselves and so ignorant of modern money economics.
Your blog has been instrumental in educating me on how things can be done differently and I thank you.
A politics of care is essential in our country and anything that can take the message to a much wider audience is to be welcomed.
We are now going to be working on this.
Thanks!
This is just a quick note to say thank you to the very many people who have commented here in ways that are extremely helpful.
As a result of all your suggestions, I think we can safely rule out Facebook and Discord as the basis for new discussion groups.
What I do not know is where we might go. More research is now taking place on that, including on all the suggestions made here.
Tangentially to that, what I have also learned is that we can, almost certainly, improve the comment system on this blog in a way that I did not realise because of the availability of plug-ins that should make the system easier to use and follow. That, it turns out, might well be the first thing that we look at in detail, so this will be useful whatever happens.
But for now, my thanks for all your contributions. I will keep you posted.
I would happily meet up with fellow travellers, I am at that stage where I am in agreement with most of what is written in this blog. I see this as a positive opportunity to discuss with like minded people in order to challenge and broaden my understand of MMT. On that note I would say my preference for social media engagement would be Whatsapp groups based around geographical areas of the UK. Having a number of groups setup this way would allow people to meet up for a informal coffee or beer and expand on discussions. A more sophisticated setup can evolve at a later once the conversations have been started.
If I have the energy (and that is a big “if” ) I will do some stuff on this today.