Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms - NYTimes.com.
From the New York Times:
ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.
Athenians declared taxes at a local office. Greek’s shadow economy represents 20 to 30 percent of its G.D.P.
This is the onshore equivalent of offshore abuse.
It's brought Greece to its knees.
Offshore seeks to bring the world economy to its knees.
It's why offshore is the common enemy of democratic states that want to ensure the well being of all who live in their jurisdictions.
And it's why all that is said in Douglas, St Helier, St Peter Port, Georgetown, Geneva, Zurich and beyond is nonsense. At its core offshore is a deliberate attempt to undermine the state as we know it. That's economic warfare. Which is why we have to respond in kind.
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“This is the onshore equivalent of offshore abuse”
Richard, you make no sense, whatsoever.
If anything the Greek example demonstrates the whole issue of “offshore” is irrelevant, in fact it does not even exist.
There is only one type of abuse; it is called criminal tax evasion, wherever it happens.
Why don’t you admit, that after yearss of gigabites spent on the topic you are offer the beginning of a shred of evidence that it has any connection to “offshore” financial services.
@Ted G
So I, every major tax authority around the world, every tax inspector I’ve ever met, the OECD, IMF, FATF and more, plus countless hundreds of thousands of admitted tax evasion cases in amnesties al around the world are all living in a world of make believe.
You really are very silly, aren’t you? Why say such stupid things?
Richard
Richard, my post was not particularly well drafted so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Nobody denies that criminal tax evasion exists, and that some of it takes place in “offshore” locations.
But you are totally unable to demonstrate that the “offshore” financial services industry is driving this. Because if “offshore” was really the driver, then everyone, everywhere would evade tax, because “offshore” is available to all, and offshore bankers do not discriminate.
Against this background, please explain to me why:
Swiss do not evade their taxes like Italians do?
Israelis do not evade their taxes like Greeks or Turks?
Chileans do not evade their taxes like Argentineans or Venezuelans?
Canadians do not evade their taxes like Mexicans?
Even closer to home, why are citizens of Minnesota and Wisconsin far less likely to evade tax than those of, say, Louisiana or Mississippi?
The painful truth Richard is that “offshore” cannot explain this, and that is a major, in fact pretty terminal dent in your argument.
Now let me give you a grown-up explanation of tax evasion:
Tax evasion, like all crime, is driven by a combination of opportunity and motives: the opportunity is there for EVERYONE, sometimes reinforced by lax enforcement standards (like in Greece).
But taxpayers only seize on the opportunity when they have the motive: and that is when governments are corrupt, inefficient, hijacked by trade unions. In short, when taxpayers feel they are not getting the value they deserve for their hard-earned Dollars.
Now please discuss.
Ted
I am not entirely convinced that offshore is available to all. As an employee of a UK business, I really do not see how I can use “offshore”. Isn’t the reality that “offshore” is only really available to people in certain financial cirumstances?
@Ted G
Ted
Anyone who can argue that Italy is hijacked by Trade Unions has no credible argument to respond to
And you are, as James points out, wrong. In many countries most have no opportunity for abuse – unless self employed or part of an elite. Those minorities do evade, frequently. The evidence is very clear on that, universally.
The issue is not what you say at all. It is whether or not there is a cultural acceptance of the appropriateness of regulation matched with high rates of employment
Where there is evasion is low
Where there is not evasion is high
And in every case where evasion is high offshore facilitates the evasion
@James from Durham
JdF
It is not my place to discuss (or even advertise) the availability of “offshore” finanacial services to residents in the UK. In addition, it was not at all the purpose of my comment.
Having saud that, Richard is spoon-feeding his readers the idea that “offshore” tax evasion is only available to, and committed by wealthy taxpayers. It is a fallacy, which I suspect he is propagating because it pleases the dinosaurs class warriors (i.e. trade unions) that are his manin (only?) paying clients.
But he is wrong, or ignorant, or (more likely) both.
People in all income and wealth deciles engage in tax evasion: millions of taxpayers hold “offshore” savings accounts and fail to report the savings income. Hundreds of thousands of owners of overseas properties fail to report rental income. Last time I checked, there are not millions, or even hundreds of thousands of millionaires.
@Ted G
And as is abundantly clear from what I have written on this blog – I make none of the errors you refer to
What I am pleased to note however is that you agree that tax evasion in tax havens is undertaken by millions of people
Earlier you were denying there was any evidence that such activity took place at all
A strange shift in position in such a short place of time, but at least you now agree I was right all along
@Richard Murphy
I wrote
Nobody denies that criminal tax evasion exists, and that some of it takes place in “offshore” locations.
So when exactly did I deny that there is some tax evasion taking place offshore (although not necessarily in tax havens?
@Ted G
As you well know, you wrote recently on this site that there was no evidence at all that offshore played any role at all in tax evasion
I’m sorry, but you’re not worth debating with
This debate, with you, is closed.
Richard,
You decided to close the debate with Ted G, but still have not replied to his overall question, getting back to the Greek situation, in what are offshore jurisdictions responsible for :
– cooked-up official statistics regarding the real economic and fiscal situation of Greece;
– over-generous pension plans (disconnected from their beneficiaries’ contributions);
– a corrupt and unefficient tax collection system;
– a bloated civil servant population (thanks to a croyni-approach of political parties, from left or right);
– significant military expenditures, much more than NATO members (a double form of bureaucracy milking the State);
– a huge shadow economy (25 % of GDP);
– a strong propensity of the Greek population to practice tax subtraction (not necessarily tax evasion), probably a result of their appreciation of the above-mentioned criteria.
When many Greeks end up saying : “We love our country, we just do not trust it”, you should wonder whether state undermining in Greece is not due to massive public policy errors (largely tolerated by a significant part of the population, hoping to take advantage of a nanny-state), resulting in large domestic and foreign imbalances in that (admittedly beautiful) country, and not to your easy and oft-claimed culprit of offshore (and distant) financial centers.
Best
Bernard
@Bernard
No I didn’t choose to debate with Ted
I chose to blog
He chose to comment
I chose to let him on
bet he’s also a dedicated time waster, and candidly rather nasty
And I’m at complete liberty to decide whether I want to waste my time dealing with his comments or not, and yours
I won’t because I’ve dealt with them already on this blog and because nothing I can say will change his mind
Nice to note though he keeps admitting he gets all is facts wrong