In this podcast, I spoke with Thomas Murphy, my son and the videographer and editor behind this channel, about something that matters to his generation: where can young people actually go to meet each other?
Pubs and restaurants are available, but they cost money and often assume that drinking or consuming something is part of socialising. Coffee shops close early. Youth clubs have disappeared. Schools and other community buildings have become expensive to hire. Hobby shops and other informal meeting places are struggling or have vanished altogether.
The result is the loss of what sociologist Ray Oldenburg called the “third place”: somewhere that is neither home nor work, where people can meet, talk, pursue interests and simply spend time alongside other people.
That matters when loneliness is becoming an increasing concern, particularly among younger people. Telling someone to “get a hobby” is not much use if there is nowhere affordable for that hobby to happen.
Tom and I discuss how online gaming has not filled this gap, why physical meeting places still matter, and whether vacant high-street shops could become community spaces with support from local and national government.
This is ultimately about more than young people. We need places where generations can mix, friendships can form, and communities can develop without everyone being required to spend money simply to be there.
This is the audio version:
There is no Debate Ammunition for this video.
There is no transcript for this podcast, but this is my summary:
In this podcast, I spoke with Thomas Murphy, my son and the videographer and editor behind my YouTube channel, about a problem that is increasingly important to him and, I believe, to many people of his generation, which is the disappearance of places where young people can meet, socialise and pursue hobbies without having to drink alcohol or spend heavily.
Tom explained that, as he has grown older and become more independent, finding places where he can pursue his hobbies and meet other people has become increasingly important. Yet in towns such as Ely, there are remarkably few places where young adults can simply meet without going to a pub, restaurant or somewhere else where spending money is expected.
That matters because many young people drink less alcohol than previous generations. Tom does not particularly enjoy pubs and does not want alcohol to be the necessary backdrop to seeing friends. I noted that 31 per cent of 16- to 24-year-olds in the UK do not now drink. Others might drink occasionally but still do not want to spend their social lives surrounded by alcohol or intoxicated people.
Ely illustrates the problem. Despite being a tourist destination with many cafés and restaurants, there are no coffee shops in the centre open after six in the evening. For anyone finishing work at five, that effectively rules them out. By the time they have travelled home and are ready to meet friends, the cafés have closed. Their practical choices are often reduced to home, work or the pub.
I think that matters because coffee shops offer something more than coffee. They provide places to work, talk or simply coexist with other people. Sometimes social connection means no more than recognising familiar faces, exchanging greetings or sitting comfortably in the presence of others. We need places where that can happen.
The problem extends to hobbies. Tom described how clubs increasingly struggle to find suitable and affordable premises. Rising rents, insurance costs and concerns about liability make venues reluctant to accommodate some activities. His own armour-based combat group has found it difficult to secure training spaces because the mention of swords immediately creates concern. Even when suitable facilities can be found, the rents can be difficult for clubs to afford.
Less physical hobbies face similar problems. Tom recalled spending considerable time as a teenager in Games Workshop stores, where people could paint models, build them and talk to others who shared their interests. Those shops were hobby spaces as well as retail outlets. Tom believes that having somewhere to spend time with like-minded people played an important part in his development.
That model has changed since Covid. Games Workshop stores have become much more conventional retail spaces, while independent hobby shops have also struggled. Ely lost a gaming model shop, which served people from across the Fens but could not survive the combination of high rents and competition from online retailers. Another community space disappeared as a result.
I linked this to the wider loss of community infrastructure. More than 4,500 youth clubs were lost between 2010 and 2024. Schools have also become less available as community venues. Where schools once commonly let rooms to clubs and societies, academy structures and commercial pressures mean that many now charge high fees. From our own experience of looking for venues, schools can sometimes cost more than hotels.
Cost creates another barrier. Tom cited research from Young Scot suggesting that 48 per cent of young people have been prevented from pursuing hobbies because of the costs involved. Equipment, membership, venue hire and transport all matter. Even supposedly cheap hobbies are rarely genuinely free, while expensive public transport makes participation harder for young people who do not drive.
This brought us to the idea of the “third place”, developed by sociologist Ray Oldenburg. Home is the first place and work is the second. The third place is somewhere neutral where people can meet regardless of status, wealth or background. It might be a café, library, park or pub. What matters is that people can be there without having to justify their presence through substantial spending or participation in a narrowly defined activity.
We considered whether changes on the high street might create an opportunity. With some major charities reducing their retail presence, vacant shops could become community hubs. Tom suggested government support, perhaps through business-rate relief or assistance with rents, to make some of these premises available for social and hobby activities.
Gaming demonstrates why such spaces are needed. Tom accepted that online gaming creates genuine friendships and communities, but he does not think it solves the underlying problem. Instead, it at best fills a void. If someone comes home from work and nowhere is open, joining friends online may be the easiest available form of social contact. Gaming can therefore become a kind of third place inside people's homes because society has failed to provide one outside them.
I am particularly concerned about loneliness. People in their twenties should have opportunities for intense social contact, friendship and discovery, yet many now say they are lonely. Telling them simply to “get a hobby” misses the point when hobbies themselves lack affordable places in which to happen.
My own experience shows how important such places can be. When I was 13, the late Jack Ray introduced me to model railways in what was effectively a safe third place. That encounter changed my life. Model railways led me into railway history, then company history, social history and social anthropology, and eventually towards economics and accounting. It was also Jack who told me that if I wanted to change the world, I should write. The rest is history.
None of those consequences could have been predicted from what appeared to be happening at the time, which was a teenager being given somewhere safe to pursue an interest. The intergenerational relationship mattered as much as the hobby itself. I was 13, and Jack was about 54 when we met, but the impact he had on my life was enormous.
Tom and I concluded that government, particularly local government, has a role to play. Planning policy, business-rate support and assistance with rents could help create accessible community spaces. Vacant high-street premises offer an obvious opportunity.
I also argued that this should be a cross-party issue. These spaces should not just be for young people. They should allow generations to mix, ideas to be exchanged, and people with common interests to find each other.
Our conversation had a simple conclusion. We need places where people can meet without being required to drink, spend heavily or belong to a particular organisation. At a time when loneliness is increasing and high-street premises are becoming vacant, failing to create those spaces would be a major missed opportunity. Safe third places can provide friendship, community, creativity and purpose. My own experience shows that we can never know just how significant their consequences might be.
Poll
Thanks for reading this post.
You can share this post on social media of your choice by clicking these icons:
There are links to this blog's glossary in the above post that explain technical terms used in it. Follow them for more explanations.
You can subscribe to this blog's daily email here.
And if you would like to support this blog you can, here:
Buy me a coffee!
What I used to note in local government was that youth does not vote, so cuts, austerity and the like will dis-proportionally fall on things set aside for them. OK, so these days there are youth mayors and consultative groups and I have seen them produce skateboard parks and the like but places to be with other youth and places to be safe have been closed down – and I’ve built new council houses on some of the land too.
The lack of foresight in energy poverty has created ‘warm spaces’ where people of all generations can get and keep warm but huddling together to keep warm and alive is one thing; meeting up to share interests and hobbies is another.
What we see here is a symptom of the ‘finance curse’ – that we can only see returns in cash value only.
But what angers me is that 2010 was some 16 years ago – and we still haven’t really changed much since then despite how many prime ministers and governments? How long will this keep going on, this pretense that we have no money to invest and in order to get something, something else has to be lost? I’m heartily sick of it, and the only positive thing for me in it all is that I will not succumb to blaming anyone else but the people who in charge in the government and the civil service who persist with these cruel and indifferent policies.
I know who you are, do you understand, you will not hoodwink me and God forbid that you ever become accountable to me.
Great to hear about Jack! And thanks for this digital third space of sorts. Outside of university facilities, there can certainly be a lack of equivalent ‘societies’. Hopefully the vape/barber/betting shop model of local ‘development’ can be overturned.
You could also argue that other age groups are presented with the same problems – not everyone has a partner/wife etc, and may also want to go out and socialise in a non pub/restaurant setting. Its an issue for quite a lot of people.
Accepted.
I realise it is a bit late to change now, but the European model of bars, rather than pubs, where drinking coffee is as normal as drinking beer fills the gap slightly, although there is still some expenditure involved. But in Spain, for example, every community has its own traditions and community groups spend all year planning for their own annual festival, a bit like the Notting Hill Carnival. The English seem to have lost most of our traditions.
Except Morris dancing, and I think the appeal is limited,
I speak from experience when I suggest that Morris can’t be a solution to the central problem Tom has identified. Many years ago a colleague invited me to join the local Side.
They were sponsored by the local brewery 🙂
Coffee is going to get pricey as a consequence of climate change. Arabica will be unavailable or unaffordable. Robusta will have to do, though it, too, will be more expensive.
Correct
Arabica is going to be more of a luxury than now
I’ve often reflected on lack of youth facilities, mainly because my own teenage years were dominated by such facilities. We had dozens of youth clubs in Sunderland where I grew up. Most had youth leaders and assistants with music, snooker tables, games and Saturday dances as well as snack bars and halls for five a side or badminton/table tennis. There was also a well established league for football on Saturday afternoons with council-run pitches and changing facilities. There were even quiz leagues, table tennis leagues. Nearly all facilities and clubs were subsidised by the local authority, although some were also connected to a school, a church or the YMCA/YWCA. Some did ask for small contributions and dances with local groups providing the music had a cover charge.
As far as I know, it is mainly all gone along with the support from the council. There are still some school clubs and plenty of football clubs. I think it went long before austerity, so I don’t blame that. I suppose youth culture changed in the 60 or so years that have passed since I was a teenager. Maybe the circle will turn and schools will be able to recreate those valued experiences. They will need extra funding which would be money very well spent.
Hi Alan, I also did my growing up in Sunderland, where I found my youth culture in the local cycling club (Houghton CC) and as you say there were plenty of opportunities for young people to socialise. I often feel sorry for young folk today as, unless you’re a member of a sports club, there doesn’t seem an awful lot on offer. I wonder if it’s partly a case of chicken and egg, that young people spend so much time on-line that they make less effort to engage and what is available dwindles as a consequence.
I think the lack of opportunity comes first. We discuss this in the podcast.
Thanks for raising this, it is something discussed widely in my hobby, tabletop wargaming. People in the hobby feel that our gaming communities are some of the few places left that offer a third space. If it wasn’t for wargaming, roleplaying games, and board games I wouldn’t have made any new connections outside work for the past 25 years. All my social interactions are done through gaming, face to face in clubs and at friends houses. I would urge anyone with young people in their lives to encourage them to find a gaming shop or club, there are more than you realise and can be found in online searches. Wargaming can be expensive, especially now Games workshop is a corporation, but their are cheaper alternatives, and board games and RPGs are free when someone else has bought them and are looking for players. My local hobby shop is often packed with players, and the club I attend is linked to mental health charities. The hobby is aware of the loneliness of young people and is active in encouraging young people to join in. The structure of games is also great for the neurodivergant. Oh, and Ely has a great annual painting show you should check out, the Fen Scale Model show.
Thanks.
I have never heard of that show.
We do need to pressure government to provide more investment in community and Andy Burnham’s idea of devolving power is a good start, in my experience relying on government is the last resort. My best advice is be pro-active and think outside the box. Are there any estates in the area?, do they have a village hall?, does Ely?, can you negotiate a space/room within?, Are there enough like minded people to attend regularly?, you would need at least 4. Could you afford a small sub, maybe £10/month to cover electric cost, coffee, tea & biscuits…etc.
I say this for Thomas’s benefit as the first Games Workshop opened in 1978 in Dalling Road, Hammersmith, I was born in Fulham and new it well. My friends brother Deni had started a fantasy gaming club in the community room of his estate with the help of Steve Jackson (Co-Founder of Games workshop). This was all pre-Warhammer when GW had the exclusive rights to sell Gary Gygax’s D&D in the UK, they also sold Ad&d, Rolemasters, Champions, Runequest and a whole lot more. All the miniatures were a lovely, lickable lead with airfix enamels for painting, I used to sell the ones I painted at Games People Play in Notting Hill. Steve invented Car Wars in the 1980’s and Deni is in the credits.
Thanks for the nostalgia trip
Looking forward to October
Thanks! Thomas will be reading this….
There is one stream of community space that is steadily becoming available and then disappearing. As fewer and fewer people attend church, more and more potential community space is becoming available. To be financially viable, my wife’s church relies on hire for community events. This requires a lot of volunteer work, briefing hirers on health and safety, ensuring cleaning etc. In a few years time the diocese will decide to close and sell the church. Taking the money and shutting off one more community space.
Agreed
Bring Back Youth Clubs!!
I have mentioned this before but when we talk about support for Arts and Sports why is there no support for what I might loosely call ‘everything else social or creative’
In particular I suggest that means ‘premises’ where organisations can meet and store their stuff – a big issue for model railway clubs. I might also add access to bank accounts, utilities – dont get me started and some basic training for club officers.
Clearly ‘premises’ can mean many things including village and church halls, schools, meeting rooms in pubs etc not just ‘Community Centres’
Much to agree with
Let’s face it, you can’t even go to the toilet outside your own home without having to pay for a drink or meal first, never mind socialise.
I’ve long been both angered and saddened by the defunding of youth clubs and their staff. Many, many teenagers have nowhere to go apart from shopping centres and parks where they are generally considered a nuisance and unwelcome. No wonder they get stroppy! Interest based clubs are great but many just need a safe space to “hang out”and have people to talk with…an important part of teenage life…..it doesn’t always need to be structured. Also there are many places in this country where families can’t afford to fund any kind of hobby let alone the current cost of a coffee. As a teenager I lived in a small town in Somerset which had a youth club, as did all the neighbouring towns. It was free. You could play music, table tennis or just sit and chat and there was always a staff member around. Once a month there would be a Saturday night dance with a live local band.
When my daughter reached her teenage years that had gone but she spent a lot of time at the dance studios where she attended classes several times a week – fortunately I could afford to pay for that. I also had an old shed at the bottom of the garden which I cleared out for the “hanging out” bit where friends could gather when the weather prevented them from using their favoured Cambridge haunts. I was lucky to be able to do this.
I was reminded of the extent of this problem recently when in John Lewis furniture department – the was a group of lads sitting on the sofas chatting and being asked to leave by the staff. Apparently this often happens – they needed somewhere free to go and spend time together!!
So much to agree with.
I see no mention of Hackspaces. I was first involved with Oxford Hackspace from 2012 onwards (large, excellent premises thanks to the Oxford Trust) then from 2018 EOF Hackspace, hosted for a very reasonable fee by Makerspace Oxford. I was one of the 3 founders and the Finance Director, despite being an elderly female. We were able to shape it to exactly meet our needs, and interests included textiles, music and 3D printing. Unfortunately I am no longer actively involved due to long covid. There isn’t a hackspace in Ely but there is in Cambridge. I think you should have a chat with them. It is pretty easy to set up such a thing – and you may find the local authorities are dying to give you money!! That was my experience, but I turned the offer down, as our own resources were sufficient.
Our main social evening is currently on Wednesday. https://eof.org.uk/ and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EOFCoop/?locale=en_GB.
Happy to provide more information.
Good luck!!
Eileen
I have never heard of or seen that…
I have shared with my guys…
Sorry for ‘typo’ – we are hosted by a very interesting and constructive organisation, Makespace: https://makespaceoxford.org/.
Thank you
I’m not sure if it’s possible to meet and fall in love in an eco-biome, but that’s how it will have to be.