John McDonnell appeared at the Edinburgh Fringe yesterday, and somewhat upset his party in Scotland.
According to The National (Scotland's only pro-independence paper):
McDonnell told LBC host Iain Dale that the issue would be for the “Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people to decide”.
He added: “They will take a view about whether they want another referendum. Nicola Sturgeon said by late next year or the beginning of 2021.
“The Scottish Parliament will come to a considered view on that and they will submit that to the Government and the English parliament itself.
“If the Scottish people decide they want a referendum that's for them.”
He added: “We would not block something like that. We would let the Scottish people decide. That's democracy.
“There are other views within the party but that's our view.”
I think that the last comment is something of an understatement, and that McDonnell must have known this. Labour's Scottish leader, Richard Leonard, is one of those who he must have profoundly upset.
But, I'm often told I do not give John McDonnell enough praise: on this occasion I will do so: he got this one right. He respected Scottish democracy and it is time more English MPs did so.
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“The Scottish Parliament will come to a considered view on that and they will submit that to the Government and the English parliament itself.”
English parliament? When did that happen? Scots keep getting told we are a union of equals but now get told we need the permission of our colonial masters to decide our own future!
Did the ‘English’ parliament have to ask the permission of the other partners of the union with Europe for permission to leave? Why should Scotland have to beg for that same right to leave the political union with England?
He’s thinking EVEL defines Westminster
Which says a lot….
Nice to hear him say it, but with what authority does he speak when Labour has no cohesion. Besides which it relies on Labour being elected to be the English (sic) government.
I’d put this into the category of empty electioneering platitudes until I see some evidence of wider party support. Starting in Scottish Labour would be nice.
Flap flap oink oink……. Ooh look ! It’s got a little curly tail.
Today Peter A Bell ‘somewhat’ mirrors your thoughts.
Very good
McDonnell stated a self-evident truth. A decision to call an indpendence referendum can be made by the Scottish parliament.
Concerning whether i), the Scottish electorate want such a decision, and ii), how the British parliament reacts to the call, they are, of course, seperate and distinct issues.
And yes, the SNP majority in the Holyrood parliament enables it to call a referendum today.
But doing so without majority support of the Scottish electorate and Westminster-endoresement would probably be counter-productive to the nationalist cause (but maybe not).
As democratic socialists, neither Richard Leonard nor Jeremy Corbyn would contest the constitutional logic outlined by McDonnell. Leonard has already indicated that Scottish Labour would disapprove of any such call for a referendum and would promote Union within the UK.
Herein lies Labour’s recovery in Scotland.
I think the last a definition of decided optimism
“I think the last (paragraph) a definition of decided optimism”
Thank you Richard. Yes, it is.
It is a confident optimism derived from Labour’s record since electing Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Winning 30+ new seats at ge2017 from a position the pollsters and Labour-right thought hopeless, the election of Richard Leonard to end Kezia Dugdale’s control of Sccottish Labour by the most resolute third-way blairite clique outside the NEC and impose a corbynite leader that overseas a considerably enlarged membership that follow and champion his and Corbyn’s democratic socialist values.
Richard Leonard is rightly reminding the Scottish parliament that a new referendum for independence would need the support of the Scottish people – something the SNP isn’t keen to check.
Bring it on!
Very politely, get real
I am an observer of Scottish politics
Labour is beyond hope in Scotland, and Corbyn has only made it worse
As for Richard Leonard, his leadership is objectively dire; the worst in current Scottish elected politics, and that’s saying something having noted some of the other leaders
And objectively I am not willing to waste time debating this
Richard, It may be difficult for qwertboi to get his head around Scottish politics, but essentially Labour is finished in Scotland, and possibly the Tories as well. I know you accept this, hence your reply. Recent polling shows that at a personal level, Boris Johnson is preferred to Jeremy Corbyn, who doesn’t seem to know where Scotland is, and who gets miniscule support when he does visit. As someone who watches FMQs each week, I see what a disaster Richard Leonard is, and I really don’t think Ruth Davidson is much better.
British Nationalists do their utmost to rubbish Scotland and the Scottish Government, but the people of Scotland still have faith in them, and that is daily growing stronger. As an Englishman I hope to see a referendum soon when we can form a new European state and have sensible politicians sitting in our parliament making the decisions in the interests of the people of Scotland, not following the party line of their parties at Westminster.
Good stuff.
John McDonnell has indeed upset Scottish Labour, witness Richard Leonard and Ian Murray greetin’ about him on the Scottish news this evening. Mind you, they did find a Labour MSP who agreed with him!
I am still trying to work out who Scottish Labour is trying to appeal to among the Scottish electorate. It’s not easy (and personally I would like to be appealed to by them). Sadly I think their ship has well and truly sailed.
I think you are right
Roy S Grey says:
“I am still trying to work out who Scottish Labour is trying to appeal to …”
Oh, come on ! Who has the gift of a seat in the House of Lords ?…. the best elderly day-care facility known to man.
In the meantime being an MSP is not a bad screw, if you have no reason to be there except to keep up appearances. Beats working for a living I suspect.
As I have said before, all is understandable once we recognise the elephant in the room. This government, with their Establishment controllers, despise democracy and will resort to anything at all to undermine it, whilst lauding their faux support for it when it suits. So good luck Scotland in getting a referendum, and even if you do, getting an ‘out’ result.
Andrew Mclauchlin says:
” This government, with their Establishment controllers, despise democracy ”
Maybe you could suggest one democratically elected government, (ever, anywhere in the world) that did not hold its electorate in contempt…?
Labour for one term after WW2 perhaps……… now you’re struggling, admit it. 🙂
THIS government is only worse than most of its predecessors by degree. And that, only because it is largely clueless.
Just to say the Scottish Parliament has already voted on and approved just such a motion in 2017. All approved, except the Tories (of course). The fact that he and no-one else seems aware of this fact is perhaps somewhat telling.
https://www.google.com/search?q=scottish+parliamnet+backs+referendum+call&rlz=1C1PRFI_enLY819LY819&oq=scottish+parliamnet+backs+referendum+call&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.15620j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8