There are many supposed reasons for wanting to leave the EU. As yet I have not found one good one, but I know many claim they exist, even if they can't quite explain where, how, what they are or when they might have a benefical impact.
Let me, however, offer just one good reason for staying in the EU this morning. Doing so lets us protect our NHS from the privatisation that a new trade deal with the USA would require. I stress: require. That would be their condition for a deal. And from then on the idea that the NHS might be free at the point of supply would be gone. As would any sense of quality. We have seen what has happened with outsourcing and privatisation time after time now. Service quality collapses and costs rise. Only the executives of the supplying companies gain.
And this is what would happen if we leave the EU. Like night follows day.
But it need not happen at all if we stay in the EU. The NHS can still be a state supplied service in the EU. It's even possible within the EU to roll back some of the privatisations that have taken place because they do not work. But leave, and that ability to defend the NHS has gone. Instead of the NHS being a health service it will become a profit delivery mechanism for private companies fleecing the UK for the benefit of their shareholders at cost to all of us.
You can take your choice. I know mine. I happen to know that Nigel Farage wants the US model. And maybe, just maybe, Donald Trump's visit will draw this issue out into the open. Because that is where it needs to be.
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Yes, Farage wants the US model. So, I suspect, does Boris Johnson. And probably Dominic Raab, and the rest of the raft of Tory leadership contenders not far behind.
Most people seem totally unaware of just how fatal a US trade deal would prove to the NHS. If it happens, they’ll shrug their shoulders until the first time that one of their family is seriously ill; the resulting invoice for immediate payment will shock them into realisation of what they have lost. But it will be too late.
Could someone point out to the Labour Party that they need to stop posturing and start shouting about what the proposed trade deal would produce?
I think that people would get rather angry and despondent as they have done in America Jeni to be honest which (as the formula works) means more populist far right big mouths pointing our sectors of society that could be blamed rather than the obvious (to you and me of course).
This government since 2010 has consistently underfunded the NHS so that demand exceeds supply and thus are able to promote the myth that it cannot be afforded. it has led to the nonsensical idea that if individuals pay for their own healthcare it can be afforded, whereas collective provision cannot.
That myth can only be true if we do not take account of the gross inequality of incomes, the lottery of life and illness that may or may not befall us, the variation in cost of treatments that results and our common humanity.
Although insurance may mitigate some of these it will never totally banish them.
Any free trade deal with the USA will lead to the furthering of this individualistic ethos.
In the USA, one fifth of the population have no healthcare coverage at all, it leads to higher death rates at an earlier age in lower income groups, it leads to higher management costs in provision and the collection of fees which diverts resources from actual healthcare, is one of the biggest causes of individual bankruptcy where insurance coverage is inadequate with no better result in overall health outcomes.
UK — give us a deal
EU — you’ve already been offered a deal that you agreed on
UK — No no no – that wasn’t a deal – that was a bad deal
EU — it’s the best deal you’ll get
UK — (STAMPING FEET) GIVE US – GIVE US – GIVE US – A DEAL – WE WANT A DEAL
EU — You’ve already been offered a deal
UK — If you don’t give us a deal — you’ll suffer — WE’LL BLAST OUR OWN LEGS OFF AND YOU’LL SUFFER
Eu — But you’ve been offered a deal
Pause
UK — (Blasts legs off in tantrum) BANG BANG — (LOUD SCREECHING SCREAM, and CRUUUNCHCH – SPLATT – SPLATT – BLOOD AND BONE EVERYWHERE) —
EU — YOU ARE TOTALLY BONKERS AND YOU’VE COVERED US WITH BLOOD AND BONE and look at you – you’ve got no legs
UK —(legless and unable to stamp feet any more) — see — (gasp) — told you so —(unghghghggh) — you wouldn’t listen — (arrghghghgh gasp unghghgh) — look you’re covered in blood — (hurghghgh) — now you’re suffering you nasty rotten EUSSR Nazi bullies – unghghghghgh arrrgh
EU (walking away unaided and still with their own legs) — what an effing mess you effing buffoons — clear it up yourselves — we’re off to get cleaned up
Trump — Bigly success UK — you’ve really sorted out Fuehrer Merkel and Macron – you can rely on me — I’ll give you a deal — I’m great at deals — now you need a wheelchair and all you’ve got is useless NHS wheelchairs – now have a look at this US wheelchair — We’ll do a deal – it’s yours, its yours ……….. all we want in return is the UK, Buck House, Queen and all — UK wheelchairs are useless with their great big wheels – our wheelchairs are bigly cheaper ‘cos they don’t have useless wheel things on them – they’re much bigly better than UK NHS wheelchairs with wheels – ( thinks – make America great again)
UK — hoorah — gasp unghghgh — hoorah for Trump — unghghghg – sovereignty! — gasp — independent ! – legless and free!…..unghghghg — hoorah for wheelchairs without wheels – Hurrah for Lord Farage ……………………………..ahaghghghghrrrghghghgh…………………………………..
Mike
You’re wasted here. Get this off to Deadringers or the Now Show or something.
I can’t think of a single reason why anyone would imagine there’s anything dodgy at all about Aaron Banks, premier bank-roller of the Leave campaign and principle owner of an international network of insurance businesses which funnel profits through Gibraltar, pushing for Brexit which would deliver an insurance-based healthcare system in the UK. Seems perfectly above board to me.
Wait… what?
I’ve seen this point made a fair few times.
It’s as if everyone has forgotten TTIP.
Yes it’s more likely that it’s destroyed outside the EU, but let’s not pretend it is safe within the EU either.
I’ll still settle for the balance of probabilities, by a long way
if I remember correctly, the EU rejected TTIP.
Have you tried running the argument the other way.
Let’s say a country is not in the EU, call it Scotland in 5 years time – they’ve got a deal with the EU ( and the UK too ) somewhere along an axis ranging from Iceland to Switzerland. They’ve got their own money, agricultural, environmental and fisheries policy. They decide for themselves what drugs people are allowed to put in their bodies. If they make a bad policy, they can correct it themselves without having to hire lobbyists to go to Brussels to get the rules changed in 28 other countries at the same time.
What good reason would they have to apply to be full members?
If you don’t know what trade deals are for I can’t really help you
Why don’t you answer the question? The EU has perfectly reasonable trade deals with many external countries…
And very much better ones for members
That’s hardly difficult to work out, is it?
What’s your best example?
Switzerland , Norway and Iceland seem to be doing all right with their trade deals.
Have you noticed anything about them?
Oil? Cod? Tax haven? Small? etc etc etc
And all very close to the EU
Nothing remotely like what we’ll be
But I could have lived with variants on their deals. It was Leavers who stopped that
It was Leavers who stopped that
Have you got any evidence for that claim?
Parliament is still for Remain, just.
Parliament voted against the sensible EEA Option
And you are blaming Leavers?
The public who are bothered to vote are to within a couple of %, on aggregate, in favour of a half in / half out option.
Why are you taking the stance that you have adopted that the peoples of Norway, Switzerland and Iceland have inferior trade deals compare to full membership? Evidence? None.
I am making the simple point that in 2016 Leavers offered the types of deal you are referring to and now they say they are utterly unacceptable
I d not think Remain forced them to change their minds
They must have done it themselves
Is that a very hard logic to follow?
Horace and Geezer – this is just fantasy stuff. That country doesn’t exist. Usual Brexiteer unicorns.
The thing is when facing the US, the EU is big enough and bad enough to be able to defend its members. Outside the EU, even our own government will not defend the British people, they will be working with the US against the British people.
Richard, thank you for highlighting what is shaping up to be the most sinister and far-reaching consequence of Brexit for this country. As Paul Mayer says, it has been obvious, for anyone willing to see it, that this government, for all its weasel words, has been intent on selling off the most valuable asset this country has ever produced. As he says, underfunding has been the Tory’s slow-burning strategy but now Brexit has been exposed as the coup de grace. When, not if, the NHS is sold off as an arm-twisted ‘essential’ condition of a trade deal with the US, those who have engineered it should be charged, like Boris Johnson, with misconduct in public office.
US companies (and from anywhere else) already can bid for NHS contracts if they are permitted to operate in the UK (and many are permitted). See regulation 19(1) of the PCRs.
As far as I know, no trade deal can force a state body to make ‘make or buy’ commissioning decisions. The EU doesn’t, and can’t. Nor would the US be able to. If you can point to a trade deal that forces this, please advise.
All they can ask for are things like advertisement of opportunities (anyone with an internet connection can already see them anyway – that would add little) and mutual recognition of accreditations (we’re already required to recognise Bulgarian and Romanian accreditations – I’m confident the US will be at least as good).
The restrictions are well documented
I am not spending my time repeating them here
And yes they are real – or the US would not want to change them
I guess this one slipped under the net…
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1021575/NHS-health-contract-private-american-sturgeon
No doubt even you know some areas of the NHS are open to contracting now
Much isn’t for very good reason
The main restrictions are around mutual recognition of accreditations, and removal of unnecessary constraints in contracts or tender docs that unnecessarily exclude American bidders. There’s also advertising issues, but this is a tiny issue given the internet. Anyone anywhere can see any advertisement.
We’ve already removed those restrictions for EU bidders under EU law. All we would be doing is extending it to US bidders. Not a huge issue.
Oh yes it is….
With respect, you clearly do not understand the threat to the NHS
And the untold lawsuits that will follow
This article is consistent with my understanding:
https://www.nhsconfed.org/regions-and-eu/nhs-european-office/influencing-eu-policy/transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership
Can you please explain what you know that NHS European Office seems to misunderstand?
What I kn ow is what Trump said: everything is on the table
Let’s take a sim pole example. A U&S trade deal would require the NHS pay US prices for drugs. Those, on average, are three times higher than in the UK. WHat pays for that?
And it may result in an insurance based system. I am not saying it will. I am saying it would be easier. And I pose that.
My mother has just gone into hospital and I think that the staff around her are marvellous.
Yesterday a patient who had been very ill was going home and there was a bit of a fracas as the ambulance came to take her home but the staff were very patient and understanding and got her through it.
I wish those CEO’s of the failed outsourcing companies could see have seen this and maybe wondered what they are so highly rewarded for? The money is as ever going to the wrong people.
And to think, the NHS has been starved of cash, wages and people since 2010. And now we wish to turn them into pawns for North American, race to the bottom capitalists.
Why would we want to involve American healthcare in the NHS given that it is now so expensive that increasing amounts of Americans cannot afford it?
You are observing what I have, often, which is decent people at work
And then I meet finance….and those motivated by it
May I offer this from Paul Spicker:
http://blog.spicker.uk/whats-wrong-with-the-idea-of-opening-the-nhs-to-us-traders-plenty/
It’s good
I have tweeted it
As EU has told time and time again “The bigger the block is the more protection it has”. And I personally couldn’t agree more to this. The same way as EU has begun fighting against “offshore” companies, I think, EU is giving its’ members a lot of protection from outside interference – be it a Russian, Chinese or US. If UK were to stay in the European Union, I think the threat of NHS privatization would be near zero. What do you think?