A month to go to Brexit and Corbyn finally, and reluctantly, endorses the idea of a second referendum on the issue, as he promised he would last September.
But, he does so knowing three things. The first is that there is no time for such a referendum to take place now. Second, in that case no one thinks that this is now the priority, and it will therefore not win support in Parliament at present. And third, the issue now is whether an extension to Article 50 is needed, meaning that Labour has missed the issue on Brexit, yet again.
As exercises in running down the clock go this is second only to May's.
No wonder so many think Corbyn's desire to leave is at least as strong as hers.
I want a committed left of centre leadership of Labour. This country needs that, in my opinion. This option has, to use Labour's favourite term, to be on the table. The trouble is Corbyn is not providing that leadership. And that is Labour's problem.
I wish it were otherwise, for Labour. And for Corbyn. But it isn't. And we're paying a price for that, which was so unnecessary.
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@ Richard
What would you say to Labour MP’s in constituencies that had a leave majority about supporting a remain position?
MPs are not mandated by their constituents
How many times do9es it have to be said?
@ Richard
Thanks for the reply.
That being the case, could someone tell Caroline Flint?
What a disappointment – Flint voted Remain, her constituency voted to Leave and now she thinks Parliament should respect the vote even though one of its own committees has thrown up worrying questions about the conduct and therefore validity of the referendum!
As Lou Reed said ‘This here’s a zoo and the keeper ain’t you’ (from ‘I’m Sick of You’ , his New York album – one of the most politically acerbic rock and roll records of all time).
I think you are being unfair. The whole situation has been impossible for anyone. Some Labour MPs have aways been opposed to a referendum so to get through it must have quite a lot of Tory votes. Tories are / were very unlikely to vote for one until they were convinced May would not negotiate a viable deal. Blame May for her endless procrastination. And under all circumstances as the EU has recognised, an extension is now necessary.
You can obviously think that
I believe it has evidenced an utter absence of leadership
There is a betrayal narrative being constructed, rather like after WW1 the German right wing claimed their army had been stabbed in the back. So Brexit would have been fine if Labour had not opposed it. I am disappointed by Labour’s announcement. it Is desperately important that the Tories admit that no deal Brexit is impossible and delay/stop it. The big prize in this is a split between the hard line Tory Brexiteers and the big busines Tories.
The proposed referendum is the worst. A proportion of the Leave vote most have wanted a continued customs union. If this was only 1 in 20 then the shallow 52% margin of victory disappears. Yet many probably most leave voters must have wanted Brexit enough to countenance no deal. Where should they vote in a referendum between May’s rubbish deal and staying in? They will say they have been stitched up and who can deny it?
We need the option of staying in the Customs Union, and Labour should have a chance to renegotiate, and see what is possible whether staying in or out. The EU would no longer need to demostrate the terrible consequences of calling exit referendums as the Tories would at last have suffered them. Labour wants to co-operate on fighting tax avoidance, and does not want to persecute foreigners or undercut EU labour rights or human rights. Is there anything that the EU can give to make a new referendum winnable?
The EU is going to give us 21 months, I suspect….
I hope so. We definitely need more time. If only to have a more orderly BREXIT.
I am still very, very unhappy about the fact that a commons committee has reported back on its findings concerning social media and goodness knows how many loose ends about BREXIT and I have not heard one MP from any party anywhere question whether we should be doing this at all based on that report and unanswered questions asked.
Has anyone else?
It’s not just Corbyn Richard. It’s the whole lot of them. I’m sorry, but with a handful of exceptions they are not the best of us by a long shot.
Maybe we must just come to terms with the fact that for many reasons, this country, its institutions, its society and its polity have effectively ground to a halt and reached the end of the line that we have been on since the late 1970’s.
Never mind reading the great histories of the past – the decline and fall of a nation is all around us – it’s ours!
So, lets look on and learn, stare reality in the face and be honest. And then dream a little, in the hope that we can rebuild one day. What will come, will come. As you have said, it’s going to be bumpy.
Hold on folks.
Unfortunately when the moment ‘cometh’ not always does ‘the man’. Whatever other admirable qualities Jeremy Corbyn has, and his track-record suggests many, unfortunately crisis leadership isn’t one of them. Hence it’s proving to be a frustrating misjudgement to expect it. I found this condensed interview with David Runciman in the New Yorker insightful – https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/david-runciman-on-brexit-and-the-crisis-in-britains-labour-party.
I believe he was repeating what’s already been said by Labour about a people’s vote, one concerning the conditions under which we leave, rather than any new referendum on whether we should or shouldn’t be leaving (for which there’s no time, anyway). I gather too all the headlines suggesting otherwise originate from media owners terrified by the prospect of all the taxes they’ll have to pay if Corbyn becomes PM. Sue Jones observes “The mainstream media have just widely announced that Jeremy Corbyn is to back a second EU referendum. However, this is very dishonest, as no referendum motion has actually been tabled. Furthermore, the media also need to learn the significant difference between a ‘people’s vote’, which is about asking the public about the terms of Brexit, and a completely new referendum. The Conservative office posted a highly dishonest tweet claiming that the Labour party are somehow “trying to stop Brexit”, so I am deeply suspicious of the fanfare of completely incorrect announcements in the media this evening.” https://politicsandinsights.org/2019/02/25/the-medias-fanfare-of-a-corbyn-backed-second-referendum-is-untrue/
Think Left (who we know here) have quoted the Sqwawkbox, who similarly observed “The ‘breaking news’ in the mainstream media is nothing more than an Establishment attempt to reinforce the position of the ‘quitter group’ and of Tom Watson, by claiming that a — non-existent — change is because of their actions. No referendum motion has been tabled. None can be tabled for at least two weeks — and no referendum could take place until at least August even if one were moved immediately. And Labour’s position is the same as it was.” https://skwawkbox.org/2019/02/25/urgent-ignore-msm-labour-has-not-tabled-a-referendum-amendment/
Both sites offer Labour’s press release for clarification, something I’ve not seen from the MSM.
The announcement was no doubt whatsoever based on a Labour briefing
That’s what happens
It was not made up, not right across the media
And not for the made up reason you state
I too have doubts about the media, but to presume it’s all a conspiracy is just absurd, and almightily rude to a lot of honest people who work in it, not all of whom are the ‘elite’ or supporters of it
I don’t think all media announcements are ‘conspiracy. But on this occasion, the headlines were highly misleading, and I have published the press statement from the Labour party to verify this. Furthermore, if you actually read the articles in the media with the ‘second referendum’ headline, you will find that it doesn’t tally with the article content – because it isn’t true. No second referendum amendment has been tabled
I am sorry – Thornberry disagrees
The press statement and what she said are in conflict
Labour is in conflict
But to believe a press statement proves anything is absurd. A senior Shadow minister was accurately reported. Seumas Milne did not like what she said. He contradicted her. That’s what happened
The media got it right. The problem is in Labour, not the media
Could not agree more with Richard Murphy. Corbyn is purposefully at least 6 months too late. Let’s face it, it’s not as if it’s just occurred to him that a meaningful would be helpful. The Labour party’s position on Brexit since 2016 has been lamentable. Their response has been clear as mud. They have done nothing to counter the government’s position and are only reacting in a slight panic this week because of the breakaway of the independent group. I despair for Labour. Why do they keep picking the wrong leaders? Corbyn is not a leader. It’s just not in his bones. I don’t know whether he’s some kind of rebel-trouble-shooter or whatever, but he’s as far removed from a leader as I am from an astrophysicist.
But even putting that aside, the real disappointment to me is that there is no alternative vision for a post Brexit UK from Labour. No wonder they’ve lost so many votes in Scotland to the SNP. In terms of clarity, Nicola Sturgeon is consistently head and shoulders above him. Labour are supposed to be the official opposition for God’s sake, and one might expect them to oppose, not for the sake of it, but because any kind of Brexit will be damaging to the UK, let alone a no deal. It’s beyond infuriating.
Good to hear from you
Grace – consider if you will that Labour’s lack of popularity in Scotland may well be to do with independence rather than Corbyn? Labour has advocated retaining the Union as far as I can see.
I think the Scots have had enough of Westminster to be honest – and, who hasn’t?
Grace, you and Richard are on the money (sorry) about Corbyn’s inability to lead. It is quite depressing. Maybe you are right that he is better placed as a rebel trouble shooter.
I have to say that Richard is right.
There seems to be a lot of confusion coming from the Labour camp at the moment.
It will not help us or them.
Dear Name and Address supplied,
Mmm, Now you come to mention it, I could point to many things that have contributed to the demise of Labour in Scotland, not specifically Jeremy, but I doubt if you would want to hear the stream of consciousness that would follow.
But here are a few random thoughts anyway. You could pinpoint the Iraq war and Blairism in general, or the lack-lustre leaders of Scottish Labour some of whom have been frankly terrifying — Lamont, Dugdale, Murphy to name a few. Oh and then there’s the perpetual interventionist dinosaur Gordon Brown and the infamous vow which even he admitted didn’t deliver the recommendations of the Smith Commission. And then there was an offer of a progressive alliance against the Tories by Nicola Sturgeon when Milliband was in power which he turned down flat; Labour preferring the idea of the official opposition retaining power rather than having the chance to bring them down. Time and again! So no, not Jeremy’s fault at all. The fact that he knows sod all about Scottish politics is just beside the point. He seems to know sod all about English politics either.
There was a report of a couple of flying saucers in the UK the other day. I must admit I got a bit excited. Help from outer space would be really helpful at this point. 🙂
The Murphis can fail on occasion. It did in the case of that particular one you refer to
Grace
You’re a disappointment. A stream of consciousness is just we need, given the lack of it in Parliament. If they cannot talk sense in Parliament, we might as well try it here.
We’re basically agreeing then?
The Scots were sick of Labour well before Corbyn. He’s just the cream topping on a rather sour and tired trifle recipe?
All I have to say about timing is that this whole issue was going to go right to the end. It’s eBay politics these days Grace. To win on eBay (apparently), you wait to the very last minute and then put your bid in only as the auction closes.
‘Simples’ as a certain individual said.
When you have a Prime Monister (sic) borrowing catch phrases from advertising to explain her policies and ideas in Parliament, and far-reaching and serious decisions being treated like items for auction you really do know that you are truly living in a society where market thinking has gone just too far.
I hope EAS’ irony is apparent
At the risk of this turning into another debate about Scottish politics, another very important factor was devolution. For all its faults and restrictions, it gave the Scots electorate the power to vote out an ineffective Scottish government, a remedy which they have never had in UK elections. If Labour had governed effectively when in power in Scotland they might not have lost so much ground.
However I think the critical factor is that the electorate has become much more politically aware as a result of the ongoing independence debate and in turn has started to question the whole structure of the constitution and governance in the UK. When that can of worms is opened and the full mess becomes apparent, the drift away from the UK system and its main parties becomes inevitable.
Brexit is rich with irony one kind or another on a daily basis 😉
For example I long for the flexibility of Margaret Thatcher.
🙂
Now, now Grace – Thatcher? Flexibility? That IS going too far.
I protest!
Just a little bit – that’s all.
Yes, it really is something when we can feel nostalgia for Thatcher. I have thought this but didn’t like to admit it even to myself.
And on the other side, Neil Kinnock would have had this lot for breakfast. Blair (yes we hate him) would have done for them in his sleep.
We live in a fallen age…
Blair, maybe
Kinnock, definitely
But you cannot say that these days when Delboy Hatton is back in town