The whole debate about Greece is about bankers, creditors, payments, tax and budgets. It shows how warped our world is.
Greece is a country facing collapse.
It's had a deeply undesirable a totalitarian regime in my lifetime.
It is located in one of the traditional crucibles for conflict.
It has a powerful fascist element that is violent.
It is on a crucial border of Europe.
It is impoverished and broke and the future of its government is at risk: like it or not there is no viable elected alternative to Syriza; the rest of the political spectrum is too corrupt to contemplate holding lower.
And despite all that the combined powers of Europe want to break it for the sake of their banks, a few euro that make no overall difference in the grand scheme of things, and because they'd rather....
That's when you ask 'rather what'?
A military takeover?
Civil war?
The rise of fascism?
An open embrace of Russia?
Contagion without obvious limits?
Have these EU countries taken leave of their senses? Just let their foreign ministers get a word in edgeways for a moment. Greece is a state that should in any rational foreign policy debate demand subsidy, support and aid to make sure it stayed on side.
Instead we're kicking it hard and down.
The insanity is very, very hard to fathom.
Unless you have a bankers' mentality.
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All Greece has to do is rename itself ‘Ukraine’. Then it’ll get loads of money given (stolen from other budgets) and have EU bureaucrats flying in to fawn all over the government.
The attitude towards Greece is what the EU is. That is what is written in the treaty. It has become a Corporatist Kleptocracy.
We have a saying in IT: ‘Build one to throw away’. This EU needs throwing away and the lessons learned so we can start afresh on something more rational.
There is an uncomfortable truth in your reference to Ukraine
The left of centre argument for voting “No” in the UK referendum is getting stronger. The EU has abandoned any pretence of social democracy and is emerging as a corporatist neoliberal bully. No wonder Cameron wants to stay in. The obsession with austerity, the promotion of TTIP and the punishment of Greece are insupportable. Like you, Richard, I have always been pro-European and an EU supporter. I still support European co-operation, but the case for staying in the current EU is wearing thinner by the day.
That it is a conundrum as to what to think is beyond doubt
The single currency was a really bad idea. It puts countries, big or small, successful or unsuccessful into a majority of one. It restricts domestic spending rather like the gold standard. No country is able to borrow more than 3 or 4 percent of GDP. This restriction exacerbated the effects of the 2008 banking crash in Europe.
It should be abandoned.
The behaviour of so many EU rulers and European countries has changed my view on Europe. The referendum will herald a test for UK politics, there are so many contradictory factors that a simple [ill conceived] referendum can not resolve the issues. The number of contradictions raised is truly Biblical in character. I am an Internationalist by political instinct. Recent years have been bad in the European Union – Ukraine [engineered] crisis, treatment of Greece, youth unemployment & impoverishment, fire sales of public assets, purposeful destruction and induced chaos of public services and the enslavement of citizens by debt. The EU ruling elite, G7 etc are content with international finance skimming wealth from citizens, for what purpose; when is the stack of paper high enough – NEVER. The Greek crisis has almost fully exposed who controls the EU, a positive outcome. There is however a great opportunity for those of a contrary view to the Troika – let’s take it – pointing out that austerity, the war economy and immense debt have established the neoliberal plan as a complete failure.
I have a similar pro-European attitude to both of you. The de-merits you cite are the results of signing up to the neo-lieberal agenda. The EU could work differently and better if moved away from it. This would mean the member states governments, in the European Council, changing the policies, which in turn means the people of Europe voting differently. I still think the majority of citizens of the EU do not support these policies but that they have not yet put enough pressure on their governments or the MEPs who could also make a difference. Sadly. they have diverted by nationalist parties. We must just hope it doesn’t take disaster to get the necessary changes.
Richard you put it so beautifully. David K I am with you.
I am not an expert, but the piece of information I have not seen is “what has Greece got that people want to purchase cheaply”. a) mineral rights b) holiday/retirement homes c) private islands d) or is this how the EU offloads the southern countries that may become uninhabitable if global warming proceeds. Any thoughts?
Well how about imagining the other corporate/banking side of this runt of a fear-mongering mockery…Hedge funds were quietly given a base tax rate of 15%, as well as ‘preferred creditor’ status if a bank holding their derivatives goes bottom up. That is, what all the government officials gave away, before quietly inserted ‘bailouts’ in every budget passed long since 2009.
..After all, the IMF, has been first asking, then pleading, to get these hedge fund owners to write-down a majority portion of the firmly estimated 700 trillion dollars worth of outstanding derivative contracts….to no avail (last word, heard). Now, how does the constant taking of taxpayers/bank/customers monies/assets compare with what isn’t being dealt with, but could and apparently will bring the entire dishonorable house of derivatives down…mortgage-backed securities, collateral debt swaps, etc, etc? And not one debate or discussion in any of our tainted media. Makes all very suspicious and culpable? And yet, we go on blaming people, most who have little even in voting power these days–as all systems are so bloody corrupt.
Giles Fraser did a relatively interesting thought for the day this morning: to be honest it needed to be much longer to fully explore the issue he raised, but the crux was that “redemption” has 2 meanings – in relation to religion and to money. And the western and eastern Christian churches have a very different view of religious redemption: for the west (and Angela Merkel’s father was a Lutheran pastor) redemption means Jesus paying for our sins through his death on the cross, whereas for the eastern Christians the focus is much more on the resurrection and the force of new life being the source of redemption.
I don’t pretend to fully understand the issue, but it seemed to me to be quite interesting: the German/protestant view that debt must be repaid through suffering and the eastern view that (and I apologise if I have misunderstood or grossly simplified) that forgiveness is an equally valid route to redemption.
The Eastern view is represented by the word Grace in western theology, I would suggest
And is not widely used
It should be
the Protestant work ethic has almost become part of a pseudo-religion in the US. American friends who are individually sensible and generous people still talk about the bad effect of ‘entitlement’ programmes ad people not working or taking money form the govt. The huge bailout sums they acknowledge but then return to the morals of them having to pay for those who won’t work or who made bad choices. Maybe not just the uSA.
Recent exploration has found oodles of gas and oil off-shore Greece.
Greece has assets far exceeding its debts.
Their money-lenders wish to acquire these at rock-bottom prices, so they demand that another bridging loan comes with the condition that these should be sold to developers.
Among the major interested parties are Noble Oil, an American company whose lobbyist in Washington is Bill Clinton.
¨Russia ready to offer Greeks cash in return for assets¨
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11519651/Russia-ready-to-offer-Greeks-cash-in-return-for-assets.html
And….not well commented upon:
¨Russian oligarch buys North Sea oil and gas assets¨
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31688877
So they either give it to the EU, in exchange for worthless promises from a failing currency broker.
Or they give it to various Russian oligarchs/companies in exchange for worthless promises of failing currency and high-priced-low-worth gas.
Choices: Choices