I spent much of yesterday travelling to and from, and then taking part in, an extended Novara Media interview with Aaron Bastani.
This will come out on Sunday as part of their Downstream series and will be about two hours 15 minutes after editing, I am told. That will apparently be their second-longest ever interview. We found a lot to talk about.
I was genuinely pleased to get this invitation, and I know many people have asked why this has not happened before now. Even Aaron did during the recording. I suspect my Channel 4 podcast, which has now got nearly 550,000 views, might have been a tipping point on this one.
What did we discuss? Essentially, the state of politics, the state of the economy, and how we might manage the crises coming our way in some way or another.
The Iran conflict, AI, food supply chain issues and climate change all get an inevitable look-in.
So, too, did reactions to the far right.
And, as I expected, since Aaron has previously made clear his difficulties with it, so did MMT. Here I was quite clear. I said MMT explains how money works, just as Newtonian physics explains how gravity works. MMT is not a belief system. It explains what is. Aaron seemed to buy that.
The key point I made, and this is where I markedly differ with some in MMT, is that it is not a political programme. Some claim it is. I disagree. The point is that MMT is a platform which explains money on which the foundations of economic policy can then be built.
We did, however, cover a great deal more than that, including a lot on my methodology, motivation and methods of campaigning.
The video comes out at 3pm on Sunday. I will share it here.
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This is good news. I subscribe to Novara Media because I value their journalism even when I disagree with them. You will join a long list of notable interviewees. MMT is no more political than the theory of gravity. It is just the way it is. Wearing my lawyer’s hat, MMT is evidenced and underpinned by the statutory framework governing the Bank of England and also its charter. This is another encouraging sign that the message is starting to get through. With yesterday’s US midterm results, and the willingness of the young across Europe to protest against the hardships caused by neoliberalism, for the first time in ages I feel a smidgen of optimism. Well done.
Thank you.
Brilliant news, I have a lot of respect for all the Novara team but their MMT blindness has definitely been an issue. Looking forward to hearing you putting the case, and hopefully they will collectively take it on board.
I can live in hope
I look forward to that. It is a while since I listened to that channel, but if they ‘get’ MMT then this will increase exposure to the concept. Excellent news.
Great news!
I note that some part of Novara Media’s funding comes from sales of merchandise. There are t-shirts saying “I’m literally a communist” and tote bags and caps saying “hate landlords”.
Politically they seem very much aligned with the Green Party membership.
I’d be wary of getting too close to them.
You are trolling.
I am wary of getting close to you.
Ah….he of the ‘fully automated luxury communism’ fame. I tried reading it………..but it was laced with the same old socialist problem of focusing too much on materialism as a factor of human happiness.
Well, good luck. Seriously, it would not be a bad thing for Novara fans to grasp MMT.
What I really like about this post however, is how it shows the debate about MMT has matured over the years. To the point where, clearly and evidently, we can say MMT accurately describes how money is created – it is descriptive of reality – it is not a political opinion. This is the key issue.
Neo-liberalism has stolen the idea of what is rational and reality because it is Neo-liberalism that is overtly political and always was. And that has how it has realised itself and also explains why it adherents are so cut off from the real world, living in a little bubble that their ideology has made for them. Real socialists should not join them in his.
I was reminded of this by listening to Angela Eagle talking about the ‘water councils’ being set up when the R4 interview this morning accused Labour of setting up ‘talking shops’. All I heard her do was support private investment in the water system which is actually extractive. My experience in social housing and tenant participation tells me that devolving down decision making to such bodies set up like user representative bodies does not stop the main problems at all – it just slows down the inevitable.
Verdict: Andy Burnham has failed already and no one can justify voting for Thatcher’s version of the Labour Party. Sorry……………………
Much to agree with
I’m very pleased they have invited you, Richard, and that you have done this interview on Novara Media. It is something that I have written to them urging them to do, along with many others no doubt. I am a supporter of NM as I think they are an important media platform for achieving the political and societal transformation we need. Their coverage, for example, of Palestine and the genocide carried out by Israel over the last three years in Gaza has been exemplary in my opinion. My hope is that the interview with you will have a lasting effect in improving their output on macroeconomics.
I can hope….
We are seeing people in the US saying ‘Trumpism is over’. I think that is premature but I am reminded of the time Ceausescu made yet another of his speeches and the crowd started to boo. The spell of the Great Leader was over in a few moments. Currently it has been like people have despaired but when they acted collectively, things changed. This may a turning point.
I have been kidding my American friends with the Churchill quote (which he probably didn’t make it seems ) The Americans will do the right thing in the end, after they have exhausted all alternatives.
🙂
Great that you are on there Richard<p>
BBC R4 ‘News’ has had several items on the closure of the ‘last independent media’ in Moscow. They don’t ask themselves whether we have any independent media here. They imply it’s obvious our media is free and independent despite BBC being government- at -arms- length run and MSM billionaire- tax haven owned. They censor any mention of stories by truly independent media or journalists – Novara, DeClassified, Canary, Jonathan Cook, Craig Murray etc.<p>
UK propaganda system much more subtle than Moscow – and all the more effective.<p>
Hope the Sunday broadcast gets a wide audience.
Thank you.
Newtonian physics is more akin to neoclassical economic theory. Einstein’s theory of General Relativity was akin to MMT in that it showed how Newton was wrong. And of course General Relativity is not fully compatible with quantum mechanics so a more accurate theory still awaits. Just like with MMT 🙂
That aside, congratulations. Good to see you get more coverage, I hope this snowballs.