I think it just worth noting for the sake of readers outside Scotland that the largest ever demonstrations in favour of Scottish independence took place at the weekend. Unsurprisingly no one would know from the English media coverage. It is because I think that worth noting that I make amends here.
There is also good reason for doing so. Scotland has a positive alternative to the current political malaise afflicting the UK, and I think many are embracing that alternative as a way out of the mess as much as they are seeking to break the Union. The outcome is the same, of course.
The fundamental problem for the rest of the UK is that there is still too little idea about a viable alternative and as such no clear support for it.
No wonder so many turned up in Edinburgh.
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If you love scotland so much do us all a favour and move there and stop the incessant moaning..lets hope nicola offers you the job you crave..all the a@rse licking to the SNP is quite funny though
Wow
How to misread my motivations
And reveal the poverty of your own
All in not many words
Well done Nathan
Many of us who live in Scotland are living on the hope that this will happen. That we will wake up after the next referendum/election/whatever, and discover that we are, indeed, a separate country. Finally. That we can go our own way and build our own relationship with other countries without looking over our shoulder, wondering what ‘they’ are up to, and what schemes they’re cooking up to take away the powers we already have and deprive our citizens of a decent life. We can just get on with the ‘day job’ that the unionists seem so fond of banging on about.
I would like to think, as the last vestiges of ’empire’ leave England behind, that maybe the English voters who continue to support Tories will begin to see how isolated they are as a nation, and begin to see that they, too, can have a better life if they stop electing selfish representatives of the upper classes to act on their behalf. However, that’s up to them. Many voters in England already recognise this problem and are working hard to change minds there, as well. Here’s to success on both sides of the Border.
You would be most welcome here in Scotland, Richard. But I imagine your roots are in England, where you also are doing a lot of good. There are good, smart people in every country in the world, and they are badly needed everywhere in these difficult times.
Who knows what the future holds?
I know I have several cards left to play in my hand….
I would like to echo Nathan’s poorly constructed but thankfully brief rant – you would be more than welcome in Scotland Prof Murphy. Please bring with you your insights into Modern Monetary Theory and the fallacious numbers peddled about the Scottish budget deficit. With said insights applied we might move to a self-sustaining, green energy- based and successful economy with its own currency. We might enjoy escaping the economic ball and chain of London-centric economic decision-making based around a scandal-ridden financial centre that crowds out investment in real industries
I am tempted….
Hear, hear Andy Mackay!
And, in case anyone is interested see https://www.facebook.com/groups/1466864300089196/
Recommended
Run, don’t walk, Richard.
S’good ‘ere. And on course to be much better. Your expertise, knowledge and insights would be invaluable in establishing a home for the Second Enlightenment. It has to start somewhere and Scotland has form in this.
As Lord George Saville was wont to say, when extending an invitation, ….”Do come”.
A few things to sort out before I start packing….
Richard, I’ve made up the spare bed for you.
🙂
Spot on Professor Murphy. I am retired and voted Yes in 2014. My wife voted No. She has changed her mind and will vote Yes next time. I know of a number of folk of our age who are in a similar position to my wife. The pendulum is starting to swing in favour of independence, I’m convinced.
No clear support for a viable alternative? Really
Labour polled 41.9% in England in 2017, the SNP in Scotland managed 36.9%.
Don’t get me wrong – were I living in Scotland I’d vote for whatever party offered the best hope of independence from Westminster, but I’m going to need a little more convincing that there’s no viable alternative down here in the South.
Hang on: you forget how many there were in each race
In other words, you are comparing apples and oranges
Never a good idea
Also Scotland has a system (inadequate though it may be) of PR which is designed to skew things away from an absolute majority.
It is not just the Scots but many tories in England want us out to achieve brexit.
Poll has 49% of tory voters happy to trade Scottish Independence for brexit.
Which poll?
Faisal Islam has it on his Twitter timeline, and the results are discussed at https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/10/09/union-and-centre-collapse/.
Fascinating
The Unionists hate the Union
Not sure if this is the “Poll” (with thanks to John Robertson’s blog:https://www.scoop.it/t/talking-up-scotland): http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/pages/FoES%202018%20Slides.pdf
PS (just found): The results, on slides, were published here – http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/pages/FoES%202018%20Slides.pdf
Thanks
Apples and oranges indeed.
Also when you quote percentages to one decimal place in an authoritative manner you really should check them carefully beforehand. Labour vote in GE17 was 40.0% (source wiki).
I’m guessing Adrian D was referring to vote shares in England (in comparison to Scotland) – https://www.bbc.com/news/election/2017/results/england.
@Richard – apples and oranges perhaps, but my point was that your assertion that there was no viable alternative in England was (and is) rather wide of the mark. 42% (give or take) for a party with the largest membership in Western Europe is anything but insignificant.
I’d also wonder what makes you think that the ‘viable’ SNP have the courage to take the step of demanding their own currency – the way they fudged and essentially bottled the currency issue in 2014 doesn’t give one much reason for hope – likewise their current timidity in standing more fully behind a second IndyRef doesn’t give the indication of anything like a radical enough approach from their leadership.
I’d say that ther chances of either adopting the kind of radical policies suggested by the lens of MMT are broadly similar – with Labour having a greater chance of implementing them as we’ve got the Pound to play with already. The leadership of both parties may appear to be more timid that we’d like but both have policy formulation arrangements are relatively open and Labour now appears happy to engage in debate (at least at a local level here on the South Coast Labour do) and both have enthused support – that this aspect of both parties doesn’t come across in the blinkered, complacent and biased Westminster press is no surprise, but don’t mistake the abscence of coverage for an absence of radical thought for the future. Labour’s policies now are viable and they’re moving in the right direction.
David Howdle- – I’m well aware of the system for the Hollyrood elections, but my point refered to the General Election results.
@Ian – Like you I got my figures from wikipedia and did check them carefully – but used the page that focused on the English results only – and the Labour share is stated as 41.9% there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2017_(En
I was not referring to the SNP specifically
I was referring to Scotland having options
I see post Indy politics in Scotland is being quite different from now
I am quite often a critic of the SNP but it’s much harder to find much to get excited about concerning Labour in Scotland
Scots may interested in this, from another Irishman in the UK:
http://www.progressivepulse.org/brexit/why-is-the-uk-rejecting-the-ni-backstop
How many Irish would change places with the Scots? Virtually none. And most would welcome Scotland as a friend and friendly rival in the EU with whom we have a lot in common.
Let me also suggest that you would not only be welcome in Scotland, but useful, and influential. We need more voices to critique the huge dissapointment of the SNP government’s Growth Commission report. It is a radical future we need in Scotland, not becoming neo-liberalism’s North West Europe franchise holder.
I agree that the Growth Commission report is dire
Common Weal is doing a good job of explaining why
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/13383/interview-mike-russell-msp-discussing-indyref2-snp18
This from Mike Russel at the SNP conference is quite reassuring. Still very cagey about currency, but that’s the party position still… not yet confident to push this vital (fundamental in fact) element of Independence….they don’t yet believe it and many of the ‘YES’ supporters don’t get it. They don’t want to talk economics on the doorstep.
A bit of this sort of calm, sensible, level headed, pragmatic attitude from the Brexit negotiating ‘team’ might have yielded some sort of progress before now. Westminster’s ‘Team Incompetent’ has been a gift to the YES movement. And keeps on giving. Even the Welsh, faced with a crisis in the making, are getting itchy feet again.
I watched Nicola Sturgeon interviewed on Channel 4 last night and Jon Snow (who should know better) asked her to apologise for the deaths of people from drug use!!!!!
Sturgeon answered well but I mean what was the point? We can despair of our politicians but some of the media are just so stupid in terms of what they expect. If I were Scotland, they might consider a ban on English reporters!
And why Sturgeon of all people? Contrast that with the coverage of May and her Tory numpties who have cut budgets since 2010.
Has anyone asked May or Hunt to say sorry for the NHS patients who have died in hospital corridors due to cuts? Or the highest number of homeless deaths in recent times in the UK?
Personally I dread the break up of the union to be honest because of the basis upon which it is being done. Like our forthcoming break up with Europe it all seems unnecessary to me. This move to ‘enclosure by nationality’ is not healthy.
And if we had a politics that was more nuanced than the current blunt FPTP principles we use, our politicians would rule in a more balanced way. So I can’t blame the Scots for wanting to go their own way at all.
As usual PSR, I find myself agreeing with you. The lack of coverage of this march is an inditment of much of the British media, for sure. To be fair, I never bother with the propagandist jokes like the Mail, Telegraph et al so maybe I missed something……….
As for Scotland voting for independence; well, as things stand now, how the hell could any reasonable person blame the Scots if they did? As has been noted here, they’d need to get the details right re a currency and an understanding of money creation.
But as you say, given the sheer uselessness and arrogance of this government and the likely ensuing mess (unless a second referendum can overturn the first) , support for independence is only likely to grow.
So the ‘we’re Mighty Blighty’ Brexiters are, far from strengthening Britain, pursuing a course of action more likely to lead to its demise.
Pilgrim Slight Return, it’s not about “enclosure by nationality” as far as I’m concerned. It’s about the democratic deficit in the UK. No matter what Scotland votes for at a UK level it invariably gets what England wants. Even worse it gets what the DUP wants! How, realistically, is that ever going to be addressed unless Scotland has the ability to make its own decisions about the future path it wants to take. A path which seems increasingly to diverge from the path England is going down.
Pilgrim wrote “We can despair of our politicians but some of the media are just so stupid in terms of what they expect. If I were Scotland, they might consider a ban on English reporters!”
No offence to the English people, but we in Scotland have long experience of being pontificated to by English politicians and media who know little and care even less about Scotland and what happens here, so unthinking and ignorant comments get shrugged off as being what we’ve come to expect. One example among countless stands out: When we had the referendum to determine whether we wanted a devolved governmental structure in Scotland, BBC London filmed a large posse of English MPs and media coming to investigate this strange notion and seek to persuade us not to vote for it. One telling scene was shot at breakfast on the sleeper train bringing them all north and involved one MP expressing his astonishment that the Scots had their own newspapers. That ignorance alone must have added a few thousand votes for devolution.
Unlike Pilgrim, I don’t dread the break up of the Union. Its political system requires significant reform to make it more democratic, but that isn’t going to happen any time soon and the damage inflicted by Brexit will hurt Scotland (and most of the rest of the UK) severely, but not most of the UK Establishment. It’s time for Scotland to make its own political decisions to suit the views and needs of its population, not to suit a neo-liberal agenda that has no relevance for (and merely damages) the vast majority of Scots.
Our pre-1707 history is one of significant and peaceful trading with Europe, so our trade and cultural ties with Europe go back far longer than the Union and, pre-1707, the wars we were engaged in were almost exclusively to defend ourselves against English expansionism. Shutting ourselves off from close alliance with Europe simply to satisfy a “little Englander” desire to stand alone appears to fly in the face of Scottish history, traditions and instincts and for what? Continuing austerity, centralisation of control, loss of powers, potential financial meltdown? No thanks!
While I’m on my soapbox, Adrian D (at 3:14pm on Oct 9) wrote about the fudging of the currency issue in 2014 and a perceived “current timidity in standing more fully behind a second IndyRef”. Adrian don’t underestimate the difference in leadership styles between Salmond in 2014 and Sturgeon today. Salmond is a wily politician but could never resist bragging about what he was going to do and repeatedly failed to keep his powder dry. Sturgeon is a different kettle of fish (pun alert!). There was then, and still is, a great deal of behind-the-scenes planning. The difference now is that Sturgeon is careful and cautious by nature and will keep plans under wraps until the time is right.
On the currency issue the findings of the Growth Commission report created an immediate and heated reaction in Scotland and, with valuable input from Prof Richard Murphy and the Common Weal team, the matter is far from settled. You wouldn’t have heard about this unless you read The National newspaper or follow internet sites that favour independence: neither the UK nor the Scottish mainstream media covered it. My hope is that the SNP will fully understand the advantages of having a sovereign currency and the massive disadvantages of sterlingisation.
Thanks Ken
Having attended the Edinburgh meeting on the Growth Commission report I can assure anyone interested that the issue of currency was the overwhelming matter discussed and the vast majority of the attendees were absolutely resolute against sterlingisation.
While these meetings were for SNP members only, the SNP are also consulting with other groups across the movement to gain a full perspective on views on all aspects of the report.
Thanks
Re: Sterlingisation
I agree that having a Scots currency is the way to go. No question about it.
Have you considered that Sterlingisation is being touted because
a) it minimizes change and therefore allows Scotland to stay close to the UK position with regards to EU Institutions and Laws and therefore makes a case for a simple handover to Scottish membership of EU in place of UK, and
b) it minimizes attacks from Unionistts, and
c) a Scottish pound would soar on indy and an English one would plummet. We would not want that to happen immediately as we need to disentangle our accou ting systems and ensure our nearest neighbour does not end up with too much civil unrest as it would inevitably spill over, and
d) it’s as much a Scottish currency as an English one and if the English want it exclusively then they will have to negotiate. The Bank of England was nationalised in the 40s and therefore belongs to both Kingdoms.
Ken Mathieson, thanks very much for an informative (and cheering) post.
Glad to see you pointing out the importance of the Saturday Edinburgh march – but it was much, much more significant than I suspect even you may have noticed. I was there and heard the first police estimates – which accorded very well with my own, not unpracticed, impression – that there were more than 100,00 involved. Even the more conservative estimates, post the event (I leave aside the piddling 20,000 misteriously offered by the Council) of c. 80,000 leave one thing needing to be said. If the numbers, for this purely Scottish demonstration, are compared with UK population size, it is clear that this was – at least – the equivalent of the anti-Iraq War demonsration in London in 2003, i.e. between 972,000 and 1,215,000. Let’s just accept a reasonable average of 1.1 million. Where that London march was aimed at stopping one disastrously stupid and immoral event, this march was just part of a growing tide of political opinion and activism with a long term aim. The next referendum campaign has not even started. The date is not yet known – and the flood of public feeling is very far from having crested. This is not going away – and the ‘Union’ is clearly not going to survive. The more the London dominated press and their pseudo-Scottish ‘shadows’ ignore and the mainstream TV distort, what is happening, the more brutal is going to be their awakening. At least, Blair recognised that he was in deep political trouble – but the blindness of May and the Breximaniacs is beginning to makle the Bourbons look like enlightened amateurs.
I get why people think as they do on the issues I have commented on. I abhor the way Scotland has been treated by England – and the same goes for my feelings about Ireland and Wales.
But my over arching concern remains that barriers put up to protect can also become cages where a people or a state can be cornered and also more isolated from their nearest neighbours.
Isolationism causes ignorance and empathy starts to go out the window.
All this does is strengthen nationalism when we know that nationalism is posing problems in the world at the moment.
Needless to say I am worried and sad whether some of you care about that or not.
‘When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will’ said Bastiat. This prescient observation must be remembered.
There is a difference between the kind of nationalism that the SNP advocate–which is simply self-determination and freedom from domination by another, larger country–and the kind of ‘nationalism’ that right-wing governments support, which is the kind that excludes or targets groups of people already within their borders, based on skin colour, country of origin, language, gender, religion, etc. The SNP has demonstrated, time and again, that it promotes an inclusive nationalism, and newcomers are welcome, no matter where they come from.
Being afraid of ‘borders’ is not practical. Surely a ‘borderless’ world isn’t actually workable, simply because of size. Governance close to home seems to work best, and that’s why small nations tend to thrive. The world is full of countries, all of which have borders. Some borders, like those within the EU alliance, are perfectly amicable and crossable, as long as the different countries keep it that way. Canada and the USA is another example …two countries that go their separate ways in some respects, and cooperate in others. (Trump is busy playing silly buggers with that one, but thankfully PM Trudeau is refusing to be intimidated.)
Contrast that with the situation in Catalonia, a ‘region’ of Spain which is being bullied and mistreated by its own ‘bigger’ government at the moment. And while it’s not come down to violent oppression (in recent years, anyway) this is also what is happening in Scotland.
I’d much rather have an amicable border between two separate nations, than domination of one region by another, due to population density. With borders, both countries can get on with what matters to them, and work out their differences as equals.
Jan
Whilst I agree and are aware that there are different strains of political thought concerning Nationalism, it is still something that needs to be handled really carefully. Things can get out of hand.
Is Scottish independence nationalistic in flavour or just about self-determination, self governance? Or is about the seeking of equality – legal, governmental and economic – with England and the wider world? Perhaps it is all of these – some more than others? I am no expert.
Borderless worlds do work – as my family’s recent trip to Berlin on the train proved. But they need managing and nurturing and need to be protected from rampant competition (as immigration has proven).
I am all in favour of retaining the Union and enabling Scotland with more devolution. I also wish that us Brits would be prepared to learn a thing or two from Scottish law which has always struck me as being a bit fairer than Olde Blighty’s.
My worry is that there is inherent racism/discrimination in Whitehall towards Scotland that will cause all sorts of trouble. I would not trust the UK Government at all on this one. I also worry that a lot of our history with Scotland is carried within our royal family and ridding ourselves of that institution and its assumed privileges over Scotland would help us Brits not to see Scotland as something we have conquered.
I also confess to harbouring the desire to see the Scottish MPs working with more progressive English ones to end Fascist Toryism throughout the Kingdom in Parliament. I will cling to that hope for as long as I can.
I love and admire Scotland and will continue to do so if the Union fails. But when nation unions fail (as we may see with BREXIT and Scotland leaving the Union) I cannot say I will welcome the turbulence that will follow.
I’m Scottish. I don’t agree with independence.
I honestly believe that if a smaller partner nation within a union of other nations isn’t happy with the way things are being run, they should stay to try an fix it from within. Breaking that union up encourages parochial thinking and won’t actually solve the larger problems of the remaining union.
For extra points – am I talking about Scottish independence or Brexit here?
I have real difficulty in telling the two propositions apart and I would really welcome some explanation of the difference. All I’ve heard from my friends so far is “They’re not the same thing at all… don’t be stupid!” so if someone could tell me WHY I’m being stupid, I’d appreciate it.
An independent Scotland can be in the EU
I agree, they are very similar but one striking difference is that in conversation about the EU I always asked what laws a person would change or what sovereignty do they need that they can’t get within the EU? and got vague mumbling responses. When I ask Scottish independence supporters what can you do outside the union that you can’t within? I get a reasonably clear range of coherent answers about general policy often with specific detail. I was always aware of the risks of both propositions but only ever clear about any possible benefits of one of them.
The best basic arguments for remaining in the UK in 2014 such as political stability, economic stability and EU membership are gone or shaken, the ideological arguments about being in this together, about a shared culture and history moving towards common goals, they aren’t looking great right now. I can’t argue that Brexit and Indy are very different at all, it’s at it’s most basic an argument about cooperation in 2014 and 2016 Scotland voted for cooperation, England voted against cooperation and I suppose we will wait and see what that means in the long run.
It appears that new ideas about the Union are being considered:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/10/the-guardian-view-on-the-act-of-union-time-to-reimagine-the-united-kingdom
I can’t see compromises working any more
Not least because common currencies prevent it
Good point… but so could the RUK when it finally comes to it’s senses and either cancels A50 or applies to re-join 🙂
Jan Foley frames the argument in a new way for me and is something to think about. Thanks for that, Jan.
I guess I’m a dyed-in-the-wool federalist though… I think unions of nations are a good thing. Makes me feel like we’re all coming together… whereas splits and secessions feel like a retrograde step. Scotland has so much to offer (and to gain) from the UK setup that it would be a shame to lose it. Having said that, it would be a bigger shame for Westminster to make Scotland feel so belittled that it sees no alternative but to leave.
I find it rather sad.
“It would be a shame if Westminster made Scots feel so belittled that they see no alternative but to leave”
It’s a mystery to me that you say you are a Scot and you can’t see that this is what has been the Westminster opinion for ever and a day. Our only hope to change their point of view is to leave and make a success of it. Only then may we consider offering new terms of Union which would operate more equitably than the current servile chains.
Every time I have been in England someone has made a remark to try and belittle me because I am Scottish. Needless to say they get telt, but it does stick in the craw. PS I married an English girl so am not anti English, just dislike the superior types that talk down to others.
#DissolveTheUnion
Kangaroo –
“It’s a mystery to me that you say you are a Scot and you can’t see that this is what has been the Westminster opinion for ever and a day. ”
I say I am a Scot because I am. Born and raised. 40 years I spent in Edinburgh. In my opinion the finest and most beautiful city in the world 🙂
Forgive me, but it looks like you’re running the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. I’ll save you googling it… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
As for the Westminster opinion on Scotland… Remember, Westminster is a collection of individuals. It’s the people there that make the decisions we should have a problem with.
Since 1900 there have been 27 sitting prime ministers. Those offices were spread across 21 different people… Baldwin served 3 different terms whilst Ramsey MacDonald, Churchill and Wilson served 2 each. Out of those 21 people, 7 had something in common. In chrono order… Arthur Balfour, Henry Campbell-Bannerman, Andrew Bonar Law, James Ramsey MacDonald, Alec Douglas-Home, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
They were/are all Scottish. (Some more than others… Douglas Home was born in London but his family seat remains in Kelso… Andrew Bonar Law was born in Canada but moved to Scotland when he was just out of the wrapper).
Three of them were Conservatives. One was even a Liberal…
So, fully 1/3 of the serving Prime Ministers of the UK over the last 118 years have been Scottish. Given that we’re a country of 5.5 million people when the UK population is around 66.6 million, I’d say we were statistically over-represented… but hey.
If it’s true that Westminster – which has been under Scottish stewardship for roughly 25% of its time over the last century – has really got it in for Scotland, then we truly are a nation of masochists intent on self harm.
Let’s be honest – we’ve had plenty of seats in the room. For God’s sake, we’ve had plenty of seats at the Top Table, with the number of in-charge types we’ve sent to London! We have to take some of the blame for the state Westminster is in.
I just want us to work together to fix it.
Geearkay, I don’t think you’re being stupid. I just think you’re mistaken. In my opinion the UK is beyond fixing from within (Probably at all). I think it will be good for England when the UK breaks up. It can reconcile itself to the end of its empire and get on with being a relatively prosperous smallish country.
By the way Geearkay, what has Scotland got to gain from the union which it can’t get by being independent? It is a question that I’ve asked many folk in the past without receiving a satisfactory reply. We were, of course, promised the earth in 2014. Remember the infamous Vow etc? How much value did that turn out to have…
I think that is the killer question
David –
I’m not saying Scottish independence can’t work. Our people have punched above their weight as part of the UK since the very beginning. We’re known for being an innovative, hard-working and reliable set of people. I’m (rightly) proud of that.
My issue is largely ideological. I’d like to think we can influence our partners in the rest of the UK – as well as Europe – for the better. Call me a naive optimist, but I’m not out of faith yet and I think the UK can and should be saved, even if from itself. (Yes, I know how patronising that sounds 🙂 ).
My other concerns are… well, I don’t see any appetite for a new Scottish country to take the chance to create and issue its own currency. That’s a downright shame, because if Scotland keeps using Sterling, then in what way is it meaningfully independent?
Then there’s the Europe thing – and I don’t know what the situation would be here… would Scotland automatically be in the EU following secession or would it have to apply for a new membership? If so, would it be bound to adopt the Euro as its currency? If so, see my previous concerns about meaningful independence.
And I’m really concerned about the quality of politics. It’s easy to throw rocks at Westminster – and the vast majority of the time the criticisms levelled at UK Gov are entirely right and justified – but I do worry that we’d be replacing one shower of b*****ds with another. The political class in Scotland are the same gang of worthies that brought us the Scottish Parliament building fiasco and all of its related corruption. They gave us the Edinburgh tram system – several years late, umpteen million over cost and, in the end, a slightly ineffective replacement for the number 52/32 bus service… which still runs, as far as I know. It’s the same kind of politician that nearly bankrupted Aberdeen in the 90s. Let’s not kid ourselves that we haven’t got our own brand of home grown overly entitled liars and thieves… but we risk beatifying them because they aren’t David Cameron.
There are, for sure, a lot of potential opportunities in an independent Scotland, but I really believe the rose tinted glasses need to come off. Most people I know haven’t done the due diligence/risk assessment on this and just see the whole Indyref thing as a chance to stick two fingers up at the Toffs in “That London”. (As an aside, I live and work in London now… I’ve never worked in a more cosmopolitan, forward-looking place in my life. And nobody hates the injustices that come out of Westminster more than Londoners. It’s like a left wing island in a sea of blue voters). There are so many English people who think along the same lines as we Scots do. I’d hate tho think we were abandoning them to a future of Tories and Kippers when the Scottish vote could get another Labour government in (if we weren’t all voting SNP, of course 🙂 )
I still think we can fix Britain and benefit from the surety and comfort offered by an established, sovereign fiat currency. Others might disagree, but I haven’t given up on it yet. Nobody has explained (to my satisfaction, in any case) why the problems I describe above wouldn’t be in point the day after independence and I think the risk attached outweighs the perceived benefits.
I repeat – I’m not saying it couldn’t work. I just think that there are too many people in my hometown – many of them dear friends – who act like “Braveheart” was a documentary. It has felt a little too flag-wavy and nationalist for my liking thus far… so I’m afraid I’m still to be convinced.
What a dull world it would be if we all believed the same things though, right? 🙂
Read your text again Geearkay, but replace ‘Scottish’ with ‘Indian’ or ‘Australian’, or ‘Canadian’ or any number of the smaller states that felt as we Scots feel now.
They all tried to change a system that has resisted that change with some considerable energy and violence since, at least, George II and his American experiment of ripping the wealth out of a country.
The incalcitrant two party FPTP system is designed as a defence for the entrenched, devil take the hindmost.
You are absolutely right about the failure of the smaller countries to solve the larger problems of Westminster but there are choices.
The Irish, the Russians and the French sorted their problems out in a manner we seek to avoid.
None of them had a fiscal policy, or a determination to create a new currency. They took their freedom and sorted the rest as they went.
It took the Irish at least ten years to stop using British money and float their own.
From freedom comes all possibilities.
Continued subordination brings penury!
In the case of Britain leaving the EU, expect standards to fall.
In the case of Scotland leaving the Union, expect standards to continue to rise.
OK – that is fine. But if Scotland does leave the Union there will be an adjustment period. What will that look like given what we have been discussing here in terms of the consequences of an English break up with the EU?
What terms might the UK demand?
By all means wish and work towards something new but be careful about how you go about it. If that transition period is really rough, the Scottish electorate can easily change their minds. And then what have you got? Say if the Scottish Tories came back in as a result of discontent.
And also, it seems that most comments here are predicated on the English Tories staying in forever. Is that the case?
Well, of course we won’t know the exact details till we get going. Any more than people who created and voted for Brexit had a clue what was coming.
However, the political will is there, within the SNP, to make an independent Scotland work, and work well. Unlike the Tories, who don’t give a monkeys what damage they cause, because THEY are okay no matter what. The SNP have been working out the scenario of an independent Scotland for literally decades. They are not the ones caught on the back foot here. And they want Scotland to succeed.
Furthermore, they are not the weaker partner here. It’s England/Wales that will be out on its own, or in thrall to Donald Trump & Co, if Scotland and NI leave the UK. The EU is indicating that an independent Scotland would be welcome to join/rejoin. That’s a powerful democratic alliance to have at your back, working for the common good. Scotland has a lot of good will built up around the world, and will continue to build it, if Scotland continues to care about the welfare of its own citizens and we are willing to share our good fortune with others, and perform with dignity in world affairs.
To put it very simply: can you think of ANY nation ANYWHERE –big, small, rich, poor–that achieved its independence from another nation, and then wanted to go back? I can’t.
Let me say it like it is. Westminster CANNOT be fixed. It does not want to be fixed, there are too many on the gravy train for it to be altered. Just look at the shitheap that is the House of Lords unelected bloodsuckers with a sense of entitlement. It was supposed to be abolished 100years ago by Labour, it hasn’t happened because Labour are part of the establishment gravy train too.
#EyesWideOpen
Only solution is #DissolveTheUnion
Kangaroo –
“Let me say it like it is. Westminster CANNOT be fixed. It does not want to be fixed, there are too many on the gravy train for it to be altered.”
Well, that’s certainly you saying it like you very strongly believe it is.
I disagree. And I’m not impressed with fist-in-the-air, they-who-shout-loudest kinda politics either.
And I’m extremely wary of people who say theirs is the only solution. Cos another way of saying that is “There Is No Alternative”. You’re not keeping great company with that slogan, y’know.
There are very few circumstances where one solution is the only solution.
Get rid of FPTP and replace with a workable form of PR. Make devolution meaningful – introduce an English Parliament. Change to an elected upper house. Place restrictions on lobbying activities in all houses. Impose restrictions on the activities MPs can have outside of the house. Monitor and regulate the financial industry properly. Use the immigration powers already at our disposal with some degree of efficacy. Learn about and realise the potential in being a currency issuer rather than a currency user. Nationalise natural monopolies.
To name but a few.
We can do all of these things. We might not want to, but we can. It just takes the will.
See? There ARE alternatives.
Hi Geearkay – I did want to correct you on one point you made:
The political class in Scotland are the same gang of worthies that brought us the Scottish Parliament building fiasco and all of its related corruption. They gave us the Edinburgh tram system — several years late, umpteen million over cost and, in the end, a slightly ineffective replacement for the number 52/32 bus service… which still runs, as far as I know. It’s the same kind of politician that nearly bankrupted Aberdeen in the 90s. Let’s not kid ourselves that we haven’t got our own brand of home grown overly entitled liars and thieves… but we risk beatifying them because they aren’t David Cameron.
In fact, the SNP was the minority government at the time, and did not want or vote for the trams, because of the inefficency, etc. However, ALL the other parties (including Labour) voted in favour of the trams …so the trams went ahead–although John Swinney capped the amount available to the project from the Scottish government. If it over-ran cost, then the company responsible would need to pick up the differential. I’m not sure if they are still paying that off, or what. But this was not an SNP initiative. It’s the SNP who are the party in government now.
The biggest project undertaken by the SNP government to date was the new road bridge over the Forth, which came in under budget and on time.
Jan
(And in support of Geearkay bless him/her).
No one is saying that Scotland is the weakest partner – not by any stretch of the imagination. Where have I suggested that? I just fail to see why we should be ultra positive about a Scottish withdrawal from the Union but really pessimistic about BREXIT. There are many parallels between the two possible fractures here – many similarities. I want to stay in the EU and change it from within – not without – and the same applies to the SNP in the UK Parliament I think. As Geearkay says too. Better the devil you know Scotland? Hmmm?
England – like the EU over the UK – will not let Scotland go easily. Even if there is a change of Government, Scotland will be dealing with the legacy apparatus of state that has delivered Windrush, Universal Credit and hundreds of other policies that have made life harder for Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshman and Irishmen. Oh – and Cornishmen too.
Richard tells me here that he has faith in the SNP leadership. I have no reason not to trust his judgement. But in dealing with the English Government bear in mind you are dealing with a bunch of shits. Absolute shits – who – without an empire to go around bullying people – are quite content to do it closer to home. I bet Prince Charles still wants to be able to go salmon fishing right?
Even if the SNP are that good, all the English will do is fight them every inch of the way or lead them into a false sense of security and give them enough rope to hang themselves with. It will be exhausting. And if the SNP holds – will the Scottish people for it is they that will face the economic brunt?
All I can say about the possible split with the Union is to sound like the character Bollo from ‘The Mighty Boosh’: I’ve got a bad feeling about it. I can see the MSM headlines now. And please – my worries have nothing to do with sentiment either based on the many happy times I’ve spent in Scotland.
It’s based on the fact (as I have said before) that there is too much assumption based on what we know and feel now as opposed to what could happen. The SNP could fail; it might not be as strong as we think. The SNP might not be different to any other extant political party in that it can be bought and sold by influence. The SNP are flesh and blood – not Gods.
And Jan – the real test will be immediately after a split. That will be the most dangerous time for Scotland. Fraught even. Will the population hold its nerve? Will the EU step up to the plate? How will the markets handle the new currency or the Euro when London is still a big player? Do not dismiss the ‘what ifs’ too easily.
So Bonnie Scotland: be careful. Eyes wide open please. I don’t want to sit here watching in horror as it all goes to shit – I really don’t. And if you go through with it – hold the line. It could be rough.
BTW – there is one area of the union that I would love to get my hands on and that is Northern Ireland. Given the reprehensible behaviour of the DUP and how heartily sick I am of politics in this neck of the woods I think it high time that Northern Ireland was handed back to Eire. Rip it up and start again.
And the English should play no part in whatever solution is decided upon. It should be done by an international intervention, given the history of the area with the English being made to abide by it or else.
Perhaps then we might have the beginnings of a truly federalist solution for this basket case of a ‘union’ that might even enable vibrant Scotland.
For far too long the English have been going around the world lecturing people about how bad their systems of Government are whilst pretending that the ancient feudal system of subjugation we run here is modern and fit for purpose.
Bollocks I say. Time to call it what it is and put an end to it. It’s well past its sell by date. A really capable and humble English leader (is there such a thing I wonder?) would see that we can’t do it ourselves any more – this ‘keeping up of appearances’ about our so-called democracy. We need external help to modernise so that the ‘union’ works better together and stays together.
Hi Pilgrim Slight Return – Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful response to what I wrote. I can understand fear of the unknown, and I certainly agree that the current Westminster government is run by ‘a bunch of shits,’ as you so eloquently put it. However, nothing is certain in this world. I am a firm believer that problems arise all the time, and they can be solved, if there is the will to do so.
I guess where we differ is that I’m not the slightest bit afraid of leaving a bunch of shits behind. I’m sure Scotland can do better. Yes, the shits will try (and are already trying) to do their best to make things difficult for us, with MSM leading the pack. However, things are going to be very difficult for them in very short order themselves, unless they bring this Brexit madness to a screeching halt. And the MSM are only going to be an effective weapon in the hands of unionists up until Scotland votes for independence. Once we vote for independence, the MSM’s teeth have been well and truly pulled. The lies they’ve spread obviously didn’t work.
Independence is like divorce, really. Yeah, okay, there are difficulties, and sometimes emnities, and sometimes stubbornness, etc. But at the end of it, you get rid of what has been holding you back all these years. You are free to start over, to move on and do better next time. Fear of the difficulties that come with divorce can keep people tied to a situation that is NOT going to change, and is detrimental to everybody.
Better the devil you know? It’s a slogan I truly hate. Because what it says, at base, is that nothing is ever going to change. Keep accepting what the known devil dishes out, and …well, that’s what you’ve got. The devil isn’t going to change. The devil is getting what the devil wants with this arrangement. There is no incentive for the devil to change, if nobody forces him to.
There is no reason why Scotland can’t avoid a worse devil. The SNP have planning this escape for decades, and laying the groundwork for it. Why should they fail at breaking free and setting up their own government when so many other countries succeed? And the notion that the SNP will ultimately end up being corrupt? (Like every other small country in the world is corrupt?) So that’s a reason we should stay with a bigger government that we KNOW is already corrupt? I haven’t really got an answer for that viewpoint. It’s the bottom of the self-defeatist barrel, really.
Personally, I think England would also benefit greatly from an independent Scotland. So much the better if NI leaves the UK–and I would love it if Wales did as well. Empire no longer exists for England, and the sooner those people who hanker back to the days when they had an Empire face that fact, the better. For too long, England has dominated other countries and milking them for their resources while keeping them under the thumb. One by one, the overseas ‘possessions’ have acquired independence, and now only Scotland, NI and Wales remain. It would be nice if that were to change as well. England has a lot to offer the world, but only when it stops expecting to rule it.