I posted this short thread on Twitter this morning:
I have realised I have no choice but comment on this issue as I am scheduled to be on a television discussion programme this week where the issue is bound to be raised.
I might have more to say as a result, but I open with this comment for good reason, which is that however appalling the actions of Hamas (which they are, and which I totally condemn) this remains an ethical issue where the rule of law must be respected.
Every Israeli, whatever their background, has the right to live their life in peace.
So too does every person in Gaza, again, whatever their background.
In my opinion these rights to life are inalienable. International law seeks to uphold that right. As a country, so should we in that case.
Ultimately, and very obviously, a peaceful solution to this crisis will have to be found. The elimination of Gaza is not a peaceful solution.
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The overwhelming view of the members of the UN is for Palestine to have their own state.
Of the five who voted against , three are Pacific Island states with a combined population of about 600,000. The other two are Israel and the USA. But America has a veto, so it doesn’t happen. The reason is more to do with domestic politics, the well funded AIPAC America, Israel Political Action Committee and the ‘religious vote’. The Israeli settlers claim religious reasons for seizing Palestinian land. It is not my sort of religion.
If at any point in the last 20 years the US had said the settlements (now 700,000 people) are illegal and have to stop ( all the Presidents since Clinton HAVE done so except Trump) AND the US would not back them in the Security Council or sent them almost $4 billion dollars of arms every year), they have not done- then we might be able to have an international settlement which built in security for Israel AND for the Palestinians. We can’t guarantee it would work but the present situation with its cycles of revolt, repression , simmering discontent, and more settlement building then another revolt put down by force-known as ‘mowing the grass’.
Given the prospect of a settlement , the incentive for extreme violent solutions is undermined. South Africa and Northern Ireland , though far from perfect, gives us reasons for hope.
IMHO we need to have serious conversations about solutions and not just posture support for a position.
Britain issued the Balfour Declaration and we were the Mandate power. Under that scheme the people of mandate territories had the right of self determination. The Palestinians were never given the option. We have a responsibility as a member of the Security Council.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/third-committee-approves-draft-resolution-on-the-right-of-palestinian-people-to-self-determination-press-release-ga-shc-4370-excerpts/?fbclid=IwAR05JZisMcnwuErTxOceFjq-iNsHa_zZ9CusM385PdCfXgML65fSdb19sb4
It speaks volumes to the ‘untruth telling’ here that no less a person than Crispin Blunt, the Conservative former Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, is of the exact same opinion. To his great credit, Blunt has written to the PM to warn that ALL UK politicians who encourage the Israeli action against civilians are complicit in war crimes. Yet again, Labour (and Sunak too) have shown how spineless they are.
You do have a choice, and should stop pretending to yourself.
You can cancel that TV appearance. TV channels have cancelled on you often enough, so get them back.
Seriously, it’s not worth commentating on relations between Gaza and its two neighbours. Philosophers, pundits and politicians have been pontificating on it as if forever. We don’t need any more of them.
Indifference is the resort of the coward.
It was indifference that let the holocaust happen.
And you are so sure of yourself you use a stupid pseudonym. I hope your are proud of your cowardice.
Lammy is scared.
And we know why.
The first victim they say in any war is ‘the truth’ and I’ve seen too much of that already.
On Channel 4 last night they spoke to an Israeli representative after they showed what was happening in Gaza and all he could say was that the clip supported HAMAS. HAMAS was not mentioned at all, all I saw was Palestinians – and too many children – suffering. The clip was not pro HAMAS at all. It was pro-suffering. As have the news visits to where HAMAS has murdered innocent Israelis. We need to see their suffering too – of course we do.
I think the TV coverage on UK media outlets has been very fair and balanced in bringing to us the horror both sides of this sad conflict are inflicting on each other.
I’ve grown sick and tired of hearing shrill Israelis banging on about what has happened without wanting to ask why, as much I’ve fed up with Palestinians firing Kalashnikovs in the air telling us that ‘God is great’. Shame on both. The behaviour of these people is an affront to God and humanity. Shame!
The most telling stuff I’ve seen? The amount of Israelis sounding off about their Right wing government’s role in all this.
I always thought Israel was deadly serious and extremely competent at looking after itself but it seems that there has been a total breakdown of security. I cannot understand this at all. It chillingly reminds me of the security faults that led to 9/11. The lax attitude, taking the eye off the ball. I wonder if the U.S. intelligence services knew of anything about this attack?
Who an earth thought it a good idea to have festival so close to a border of a still disputed land? What was that? Pride? Hubris? A false sense of power, of having won? Or was it goading?
I honestly don’t know what is going on anymore. I don’t know who to trust, who to believe. Having just seen a huge population ordered to leave a land you must forgive my scepticism you see because I’m that confused. I am wondering you see if the lax security was deliberate in order to tempt the extremists on the other side to have go, and all I’m seeing is calculated sacrifice of innocent Israeli’s so that an extreme Right wing government can get its way.
And religion? To me all I see are what look like death cults – obsessed with the after life and using the here and now on earth as the elevator in a region where many religions originated and should be welcome.
If you are affronted by what I’ve said, I can only ask you to forgive me in that I just cannot process this at all. It’s all too much and what makes it worse is that we’ll be denied having a proper discussion about it too which is even worse.
Where will the Palestinians go when we’ve got refugee crises in nearly all parts of the world? This is senseless I tell you.
Apparently international law of war does allows for some ‘proportionality’ , which we in ‘the West’ seem to interpret as dead children on one side justifies ten times as many dead children in response.
Howard Jacobson in today’s Observer, as with Naomi Klein a few days ago, says ‘progressives’ in Europe have been celebrating ‘Hamas’ and blaming the Hamas victims because they are Jews.
Saying this just multiplies the polarisation surely .
I used to follow Daniel Barenboim and Edward Said ( who said the two state solution would never work – and probably wasnt intended to ) – who worked together across the Israel/Palestine divide.
As you say Richard a ‘peaceful solution’ – but now even less likely – you have religious / fascists apparently dominating on each side.
Barenboim in todays Guardian recalling and reinforcing his committment to reconciliation
with Edward Said – and the East Western Divan orchestra
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/15/orchestra-palestinians-israelis-humanity-daniel-barenboim-west-eastern-divan-orchestra
I am afraid that I think Israel is playing right into Hamas’ hands.
The years of repression, murder and illegal activity, in contravention of UN resolutions, carried out by Israeli governments on the people of Palestine have gone uncensured by Western governments. That is not, and never can be, justification for Hamas’ appalling and despicable actions last week. However, I think Hamas decided to do something to force the Israeli government to react as they are now reacting. In the hope that Western governments may eventually try to control Israel. The likelihood that it will cost tens of thousands of innocent lives, possibly even the destruction of Gaza, does not seem to worry Hamas. Or, for that matter, the Israeli government.
Has any Israeli government in the last 20 or so years ever wanted either a two state solution or indeed any form of Palestinian state? I have read that Israel was behind the creation of Hamas as a way of dividing Palestinians and undermining the prospect – always tenuous- of a future , unified Palestinian state. Is there any evidence that this is true?
I doubt it Peter
Fatah did all they needed
Agree with you Richard 100%.
I’ve been watching the various talking heads this morning largely in disgust at the apparent lack of empathy on display. Yousef Hamza spoke well as did the Palestinian Ambassador on BBC, they having family wound up in this mess.
The thing that got through to me most though was the YouTube clip from a young 19 year old girl from one of the attacked Kibbutz.
I actually watched it twice to catch all of the translation and that affected me most.
https://youtu.be/c74Zdvpt5xc?si=GNL46GiT8gSNuVVk
It put things into perspective. Someone so young getting straight to the heart of the matter gives you hope for the future.
I spent this morning watching nottheandrewmarrshow, which had film of yesterday’s demo in London to support Palestine, because I knew what would be on television news. It gives the other side of the war, which is what it is.
Corbyn appeared to be the only politician there, although there were some union leaders.
There were a lot of Palestinian flags there, even though they have supposedly been banned.
There seems to be an element missing from much of the discussion of this issue.
Hamas, its leaders and its front-line troops, have clearly committed war crimes / crimes against humanity. Israel clearly has the right to bring charges against decision makers and actors before the ICC, and there is precedent for the use of forceful means to extradite individuals to the Hague – which could be regarded as kidnapping in any other context.
International law does not recognise a right beyond this for a state to be judge, jury and executioner in respect of the citizens of another state.
Israel has a unique, generational, opportunity to move to the moral high ground, and the global sympathy for its people at the moment could be turned to a force of support for an ethical stance, and a counter to the base urges for blood-vengeance being expressed at the fringes of its society.
It has been said “this is their 9/11” – let us hope they seize the opportunity that the American’s missed – to be the mature force for growth in consciousness, rather than perpetuate the spiral of violence. The way to defeat Hamas is not to copy them.
Yes. I remember arguing for this in 2001. Futilely, of course. I think we see here, very clearly, the difference between the Rule of International Law (including the Geneva Conventions) and the International Rules Based Order. The West has chosen the latter.
The best analysis I’ve seen on this situation is here. https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520
The situation in the Levant has got better and worse from time to time for decades. It is hard to foresee any kind of equitable resolution any time soon, particularly right now. But we have have hope. Northern Ireland and South Africa show countries can address seemingly intractable problems, if there is sufficient will (and goodwill) on all sides.
Both prove that to make progress you do eventually have to stop labelling people as terrorists, hard as that might be
Thanks for that link, Andrew. I had been trying to explain about the hostorical context to my family last night, and getting a bit confused at times. That’s a perfect explanation, and I’ve passed it on.
Most of my stories about Israel go back to religious education in a church school.
I do not profess to understand the politics of the area although I can imagine the damage that history had done to the physce of both parties involved.
There is also the need clearly separate Jews from the actions of the State of Israel and Palestinians from Hamas and other organisations.
What pains me however is that Israel had the opportunity to act as the Adult over the last decade or so and ensure that the state protected its Palestinian Citizens and treated them as equal citizens. Sadly they did not
Auden said it all in “September 1939”
I and the public know
What all school children learn
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return
That statement was true before the first killings of the present crisis and remains true amidst new ones. It does not matter where one picks up the tangled mess that is this conflict for, no matter one’s chosen starting point in time or place, there one will find actions driven by responses to evil actions – and motives as flawed as any in the affairs of people or of states. In the ‘West’ we need to recall that some of the starting places lie among our own histories – in the racist anti-semitism of European societies and in the imperial greeds of European powers, very much including Britain.
It is deeply ironic that an area which has bred notions of divine leadership is a place so deeply in need of it. Where can a figure of sufficient stature be found? One strains to imagine a role model, a Ghandi or a Mandela perhaps – and of such there are currenly no signs. Yet without such magnanimity the cycle will never end.
@ Simon Nash
Israel does not recognise the International Criminal Court.
Al Jazeera often has some interesting discussions and step outside the usual line up of serving or former politicians , journalists and the occasional representative of an NGO. The speakers are not constantly interrupted and are given time to explain their views. In the extract below we have a prosecutor of a war criminal from the Balkan wars and a former UN Rapporteur for the area, as well as someone from Human rights Watch.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/2023/10/11/is-international-law-to-protect-civilians-ignored-in-gazas-war
From this discussion it seems the occupied territory are under the jurisdiction of the ICC but need the UN Security Council to refer them. I understand the US, one of the permanent members, and also not a member of the ICC, have vetoed that course of action. It seems, I may be wrong, that both sides Hamas -which is not a state- and Israel would both have to be referred.
However, I think you are right to want to involve the ICC and the international community.
The ICC can be involved whether Israel signs up or no, as I understand it. But it makes it harder,
Yes I think that is so.
But if they will not accept the findings, then I guess we are in the area of formal UN boycotts and sanctions. The role of the US would be crucial.
@Ian Stevenson
Thank you, very useful post (and link)
When both sides are seeking to maintain their power and relevence, as Hamas and Nentanyahu are doing, people suffer greatly.
I doubt much will change thou, as peace makers have been assasinated for daring to speak kindly of the other side [Sadat and Rabin come to mind]. Until the rhetoric is toned down, until both sides have respectful leaders, until outside actors stop using Gaza as a means to posture, the suffering and death will continue.
Looking at thelong term, the only winners will be Hamas. They have made themselves relevant again, stopped the agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and forestalled any peace that may have come. The west and Netanyahu are playing into their hands.
May God help the innocent. Politicians certainly aren’t.
I was rather wishing you would not comment at all on this. I note my earlier despairing comment has not been included.
To try to get this issue discussed with any sense of fairness or proper reflection is just a waste of time in my view. What is on show is just plain ugly all around.
And I maintain that there is a really bad smell about this which has nothing to do with the pall of death of all the innocents on both sides. There is something uncommonly wrong about how this came to be and the motives behind it move the human race into a new terrible age of cynicism.
I just had not got to it as yet…
Longer comments sometimes take longer to get moderated
Sorry to jump the gun. If you had any sense you would have gone out for a long walk today being the weekend.
Do you have any pictures to share with us yet if you did? I’ve seen too much destruction this week . Sharp frost where I live this morning.
I did go for a long walk this morning – buzzards, red kite, sparrow hwak, kestrel – green finch, meadow pipit, chaffinch, wren – mute and whooper swan (the latter a surrpise), greyags, shoveller – heron, great white and little egret – and more (like wren, tits, and the usual stuff).
But I moderate when I can – even during coffees on walks.
I’ll post a picture.
Must confess, my heart sank when I saw the subject of the post. However, the comments have been sensible… although I wonder what has been moderated out!
This subject needs some discussion and this blog is a reasonable place for it.
I strongly suggest a TV show is not; subtlety is lost and there are few honest participants so tread very carefully. “Never wrestle with a chimney sweep”.
Unavoidable if the question is asked
And most comments have got through here….
Typo in header.
Corrected
Thanks
Firstly my thanks to all who have commented for a very balanced and thoughtful discussion. In contrast to so much of what I’ve heard, let alone read in BTL comments.
To pick up on Andrew’s point, sooner or later you have to ‘talk to terrorists’, as eventually happened in South Africa and Northern Ireland. In both cases it took exceptional leadership from both sides and a combination of pressure on and support for both sides. We have none of that yet.
Continuing oppression interspersed with periods of collective punishment as we’ve seen from Israel just creates a breeding ground for ever more violent terrorism. Walls and fences will not keep it out. Other malign actors will be only too keen to grab the opportunity to make things worse to suit their own ends. In this case Iran – in Northern Ireland Libya with its supplies of arms.
It of course supremely ironic that Israel itself was founded after a campaign of terrorism by the Irgun and Haganah. And the daughter of two of those terrorists – or should we call them freedom fighters – is now the Israeli ambassador in London. (My father was in the British army at the time. As he said, being shot at by both sides).
For the historians, TE Lawrence’s Seven Pillars of Wisdom is essential reading. He had some idea of what might happen.