This chart came out in the Resolution Foundation newsletter this afternoon, and I cannot as yet find it online:
If you thought the UK wasn't institutionally racist, think again, I suggest.
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Why do you think Indians make a decent fist of it?
Why ask me
Ask them
“Why ask me
Ask (Indians)”
Because if you feel confident enough to ascribe the poorer outcomes prevalent amongst certain ethnic minority groups to “institutional racism”, you should be equally confident to explain why some have fared better than others (including better than whites).
You can’t reasonably explain one away with such an air of certainty, but feign ignorance when asked about other trends in the same graph. Ben H’s question is perfectly valid.
The question is valid
But your response is not
Ample people can technically diagnose: in medicine, for example
Not so many can then address the issue
Your claim is wrong
My suggestion is right
What lazy racism of this Foundation to put all ‘black Africans’ together, as if someone from Zimbabwe has the same outlook on life as someone from Mali. The two countries are 5,000 km apart if you fly! I am from Nigeria – 6,700 km by road from Somalia. It would take you four days to drive there.
You lump together Africans who may be coming from war torn countries with economic migrants from wealthy advanced countries and then try to draw conclusions about ‘black African’ median incomes.
My color has been no barrier to my success in this wonderful country, nor that of my brothers and sisters.
If you want an example of lazy institutionlised cliched racism, look at this Foundation and look at you for trying to draw conclusions from one chart. Open your mind!
Yes! If you want to learn, ask Indians, ask Nigerians. Ask us why we are succesful when others are not. Or wallow in ignorance.
I think you will find that they were using U.K. official data
I recognise your issue
I think your anger may need to be directed elsewhere though – and at the collectors of the stats, and not their users
That reinforces the point, I think
While I don’t disagree with your claim, I’m not wholly convinced this graph provides conclusive evidence of it, not least since things aren’t as simple as you suggest. Institutional attitudes in the UK are important but so is the historical, cultural, social and economic background of people in minority groups and consequently their engagement with the economy. Some examples:
– where are the Chinese on the graph? I suspect they’re above “white English/Scots/Welsh”. I don’t know much about the history of the Chinese in the UK, but I’d suggest that Chinese immigration arose mainly from the Chinese community in Britain’s former empire, in Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore and earlier Shanghai – particularly from communities who’d already been involved in commerce. Consequently the people who came would possibly start with some capital (or connections to obtain capital), and with skills, knowledge and cultural background to do well economically (and academically)
– see the drop in “other white” in mid- to late-2000s – that’s not because attitudes to other whites had changed, but different nationalities focusing on different jobs had arrived, Poles, Romanians especially
– if it turned out as I suspect that Scots in England tend to do better than the English, would you say that was down to England institutionally favouring Scots?
You are right. It is. My wife experiences it.
However, although your chart is interesting, it is open to many interpretations.
Others will see different things but what I take away is…..
White British is at the top of the pecking order.
There is a rise of more recent migratory groups (African and Bangladeshi) …. as one might expect.
Between more established groups (Indian and Caribbean) there is a substantial divergence in recent years.
In short, you are right…. but the data suggests so many undercurrents that need unpacking.
Agreed
Not to dispute the basic point and principles, but those graphs do bring home the stark differences between different groups. This points to the need for much more nuanced and selective analyses to come up with both root causes and the multiple interventions needed. A sensitive area I know but its more complex than just generic racism. The underlying factors are perhaps as much proximate as historic.
But ultimately, whatever progress has been made – and I saw the Brixton riots first hand, living in the area – its not far enough or fast enough.
I agree Robin
The issue is complex and needs lots of work – and Political will
And I was in Brixton (well nearer Clapham North) in 81 and always went to a pub on Acre Lane….
Effra Road, Herne Hill and then Battersea. And my son was Herne Hill, Brixton and now East Dulwich – though now in Detroit so seeing things first hand
If you’ve not see it, watch this speech from a US Air Force general – extremely powerful. To be stored and
re-watched in future as a reminder
https://youtu.be/pfEnYg3C2JM
I knew Effra Road
I headed for Tooting next….
What should we make of the fact that jews are not included in the chart?
Worth checking whether the omission was made by either RF or DWP. But perhaps the numbers are too small to be statistically significant? As a North Londoner and Labour Party member, I was astonished a few years ago to discover how small the UK Jewish community is. Having often been in Labour gatherings where Jewish members outnumbered black members, I had unthinkingly assumed the picture was similar across the UK.
https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/comment/observing-understanding-and-improving-society-for-everyone/ (Near the bottom of the page)
In response to Al it may be something to do with how the DWP/Gov defines “ethnic groups” on which the chart is based. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/ethnic-groups
The chart is there as RF’s Chart of the Week in their Top of the Charts blog, along with a brief summary of some explanations : https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/comment/observing-understanding-and-improving-society-for-everyone/ .
Thanks
I would like to see that broken down in waged and non-waged, and/or owners and employees. That might help explain the Indians overtaking the whites and well above the rest. Maybe a Gaussian curve might help, as well.
‘Why do you think Indians make a decent fist of it?’
Is it because they are more likely to be dark skinned Caucasians and more acceptable perhaps to white Caucasians? Maybe it has something to do with our former empire? Maybe us white Englishman see them as a people that we conquered and we do not fear them? Maybe they come to us already able to speak heritage English and can fit in fast? But I know Indians who have had a terrible time at the hands of our society.
Both Indian and Pakistanis tell me that they make themselves look as Western as possible in order to fit in. They negate who they are in public every day just to be accepted.
Afro-Caribbean’s are certainly not Caucasian although there has been inter breeding over the centuries since slavery. How the Windrush phenomena started — there is no justification for it whatsoever. Pure racism or just an easy target to get results or both?
Nor are the Indians likely to be Muslims like the Pakistanis tend to be – another group we tend not to trust?
The Bangladeshi community has always been different to me – they seem to be a minority within a minority – there is even prejudice within Asian communities towards them, let alone white communities. In my 25+ years in housing, they seem to be regarded as bottom of the pile. I think that there is a genuine lack of understanding of this racial group in our society. We just can’t be bothered to understand them.
My views on this are informed by 6 years of living in London and where I started my social housing career. London is an ultra competitive place for living space and I’ve seen ethnic minorities behave in a racist way towards other minorities all because of a competition for living space and economic well-being.
I’ve seen urban Afro-Caribbean’s making racially offensive remarks to Africans that sound like the remarks white people use. I’ve had Muslim Asians slagging off Kosovans when we needed to house them quickly in the 1990’s.
I remember trying to get Afro-Caribbean’s in West London on access courses for computer science and other course that might get them into work but many could not even write their names or addresses or fill a form in. In other words, the damage had already been done in school.
London is a crucible of inter-racial tension that knows no bounds. The destruction of the Heygate Estate and other social housing developments in London is to me a form of economic ethnic cleansing that will only increase inter-racial tension. It is a disaster being made in plain open sight by London Councils of all political persuasions which is an absolute disgrace (are you listening Labour?).
Although I feel people are basically tribal and look for those who are like themselves visually and culturally, I think that the only thing that brings out this inter-racial competitiveness is a lack of resources — not enough of things.
When times are good, people do not mind sharing. I’ve lost count of the generosity I have seen when working in these communities between each other.
But it is the pressure a lack of things in our communities that is the problem – and our Neo-lib world ensures that this remains the case — leaving communities fighting each other for too little. Those who get in then see newcomers as a threat.
This lack of resources also grinds down those in housing and welfare structures who are meant to help who also begin to see the needy as a problem that cannot be addressed and they just turn off. What can you do when you are part of the problem because your boss — the Government — deliberately makes it that way?
When we opened up to Europe which meant other Europeans coming here to work, we already had really bad systems and huge problems within our existing communities that have actually meant our original immigrant populations maybe coming off second best to the European based influx. They never stood a chance because basically they were not given one here from the start. And the same goes for white people shoved to the boundaries of society by the same malignant economic forces governing the world that rob all of opportunity.
And to add insult to injury, the Right exacerbates the problem by encouraging us to see each other as the problem, and not the unfair allocation of resources that is actually the problem in the first place.
It’s a mess.
Perhaps at root it’s about inequality: of income, of wealth, of opportunity, of housing, of employment…..but most of all, I think, it’s inequality of power. And power inequality manifests itself in many different ways. Who has the power to effect change? or the power to resist change?
I see it as an inequality of access to and influence of politicians by ordinary people. They cannot really compete with the rich lobbyists nor the Neo-liberal ideology that dominates that puts markets first. And you cannot have huge profit creating markets when dealing with poor people!
This is why we are seeing centrally located social housing in London being got rid of through cod regeneration schemes like the Heygate estate. I mean these are now prime locations – I worked on the Heygate Estate and you could see Parliament from one side. Centrally located social housing in London meant that the low waged could live these and service a wide range of services as labour. Now these low waged will be pushed out to the outer boroughs and even out of London all together. It is a recipe for disaster and more misery.
The reasons for Councils agreeing to do this sort of thing are complex but it is related to the severe drops in central support over the years that means that Council’s are often at the mercy of private developers because the market biased system is meant to be more efficient than the public spirited ones we had previously. Developers also ignore S106 caveats or wheedle themselves out of them by buying themselves out so that there is no affordable element in their developments.
It all goes back however to politicians insisting that market values rule – to me its almost a legalised version of the gerrymandering Westminster City Council did under Dame Shirley Porter with the RTB policy which of course was related to Thatcher’s aim of destroying Labour support with RTB policies.
An “All-One Democratic Party” badly needed.
I wonder why people don’t do a little research to find out the answer to things that seem to puzzle them? Much of it is out there via Google, which I no longer use, or Duck Duck Go, which I do.
It always bemuses me that people think I should do their google searches for them
RM – only started following your blog after we shared a platform. I’m woefully ignorant other than my lived experience & my field of humanities. Your points need exploring & dialogue. Cannot help but notice almost all responses are male. More time to engage, less “double shift” labour? No easy answers to any of this. But we need to keep talking – at work, at home. Why are 5x more Black women likely to die in childbirth in UK than white women? Etc etc. Go well. Indian-British woman, Ely.
You are right that most respondents are male
That bis a blogging characteristic
I am also aware that one or two pseudonyms may be deliberate here
Women get abused too often on blogs – although I moderate all comments precisely to try to stop such things and even regulars sometimes find themselves in the trash bin when I am not happy with a comment
And that stat is shocking – has research been done? I was not aware of that one
Details here:
https://www.aims.org.uk/journal/item/mbrrace-bame
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47115305
My local “Indian” is owned and run by Bangladeshi’s. They are great guys (no women, working there). When it reopens I will ask them why they think their community has twice the virus death rate from COVID of the white community and the lowest incomes. I suspect there is a link but there is probably a larger number of possibilities than I can think of.
“The U.K. is institutionally rascist”
Free health care for all, free education for all, do gangs of white kids kill black kids or do gangs of black kids kill black kids?..I live in London and mix, work, drink, play football with all races and everyone gets on great is everyone equally tolerant? Probably not. Is that institutional racism? Probably not..is it tragic what happened in America – absolutely, are their police out of control, clearly yes..does the same apply to England? Why should it?.,England is a great place to live, not perfect but where is?
Free is nt the issue
The issue is that healthcare outcomes are not as good for most BAME people
Nor are education outcomes
And career prospects are undoubtedly more limited, as continual reserve a house and evidence shows
Of course no society is perfect
But when the data shows continual worse outcomes for some groups within it there are wholly reasonable grounds for thinking it institutionally racist
And that’s before listening to the stories of those who suffer, which are the strongest evidence of all
Abeo Adebayo makes a good point about lumping together everyone from Africa (a continent of 1.2 billion people in 50+ countries) which parallels the recent issue of lumping together people in COVID statistics under the heading “BAME” when there are significant differences between different ethnicities.
Just on the numbers, it is estimated that there were about 270,000 Jewish people in the UK (2011 census). Just for comparison, that is about the same as the number of people living in the UK who were born in Bangladesh or Germany, but more than the number born in Italy or France (all from 2019 ONS estimate).
The 2011 census tells us that 87% of people (55 million) identify as “White”, about 7% (4.4 million) as “Asian” or “Asian British”, about 3% (1.9 million) as “Black” or “Black British”, about 2% (1.3 million) as “Mixed”, and about 1% (580,000) as “Other”.
Comparing the ethnicity from the 2011 census, and the ONS’s 2019 country origins, the numbers for “Asian : Indian”, “Pakistani” and “Bangladeshi” are2.3% (1.4 million – of whom about 800,000 were born in India), 1.9% (1.2 million – of whom about 550,000 were born in Pakistan) and 0.7% (450,000 – of whom 260,000 were born in Bangladesh). “Asian: Chinese” was a little less than Bangladeshi – around 0.7% (450,000, about 220,000 born in China).
There are lots of interesting strands here to disentangle. (To pick an example, Sajid Javid has talked about the difficulty he had getting a job in the City of London, from his ethnic and social background; compare the smooth path for Rishi Sunak, whose parents also came from Punjab, but were doctors.)
Andrew,
I come from Central Africa, but am white. When I emigrated here I was treated with curiosity but not racism. I was equally curious as I was baffled by the existence of which I had had no experience – the class system, which the locals appeared just to accept. It infected (infects) every aspect of English life that I could see. It is a key aspect of our dismal management performance, amongst other things, and appals me.
I think you need to factor that in too
John, undoubtedly we need to be intersectional about it and consider privilege and disadvantage on different axes – race, gender, class, wealth, education, etc – which may be aligned. (Where are the black faces in the City of London? Often sitting at the security desk or cleaning the offices; rarely sitting in the C-suite. Why? Is that race, or class, or both? But the experience of a black person whose parents are doctors or lawyers are likely to be markedly different.)
(You could also criticise my blithe assumption that everyone born in a particular country has a particular ethnic origin, but you’d need to do a lot of work to disentangle that.)