Sean Danaher published one of his typically thoughtful pieces on Northern Ireland on Progressive Pulse yesterday. It is well worth reading in full, but I want to pull out one thought from it. Sean defines nationalism within the post, as follows:
There are many forms of nationalism, but two of the most widely recognised are civic and ethnic nationalism. Civic nationalism is characterised by blindness to ethnicity, race, colour, religion, gender or language and belief in equal rights for all citizens. Ethnic nationalism is characterised by language, religion, customs and traditions.
The pillars of civic nationalism are sometimes given as: unity by consent, democratic pluralism, liberty and the belief that the individual creates the nation. Those of ethnic nationalism are: unity by ascription, ethnic majority rule, fraternity and the belief that the nation creates the individual.
For many in England - me included - nationalism is a difficult term to embrace. The consequences are too hard to contemplate when what is projected as nationalism is of the type defined by Sean as ethnic nationalism. But that, Sean argues, is an English problem, although it has consequences. There are, of course, ethnic nationalists in other UK member nations. But the fact is that Scottish nationalism is profoundly civic by this definition, as is much Welsh nationalism. And so too is most Irish nationalism now, although maybe less so in the North where it faces ethnic nationalism from Loyalists for a state that few elsewhere think exists.
What is the point for noting this? Firstly to show how rethinking a word can be so useful. Few words have singular meaning.
Second, to highlight a divide in society that is intense and real, but which few probably comprehend sufficiently.
Third, to permit those who are proud to have their nationality to say so without fear of alienating others, which civic nationalism makes possible.
Fourth, to make it clear, as Sean does, that Brexit exploited this divide and there is no way it can be reconciled in weeks.
Fifth, to give hope that there is a trajectory for nationalism that is not alienating.
Sixth, to remind the English that this is an issue we have ignored.
Seventh, to confirm my suspicion that we cannot do so for much longer.
Thanks for reading this post.
You can share this post on social media of your choice by clicking these icons:
You can subscribe to this blog's daily email here.
And if you would like to support this blog you can, here:
Thanks Richard
another troubling development is May’s Festival of Britain and Northern Ireland chosen to coinciding with the partitioning of Ireland in 1922. This is likely to fan the flames of ethnic nationalism throughout the UK but doubly so in NI. The DUP and loyalist types will love this as a display of flag-waving and a celebration of their “ethnic” British identity. The Nationalist community will feel almost as if they are being trampled underfoot by jackboots. That is of course if NI is still part of Britain in 2022.
I can also add that the PP piece was chosen by the editor of the Future Ireland series on Slugger O’Toole – the premier NI political portal for the launch of the series.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/09/29/northern-ireland-and-the-humpty-dumpty-world-of-schrodingers-cats/
I loved the review from the Slugger ed Claire Mitchell (I had put a lot of work into it and I also need to give special thanks to Ivan Horrocks who did an excellent job as editor):
“This is an absolutely fantastic article. Thank you so much again for sending. You have a wonderful way of synthesising so much complex information, making it highly digestible and thought-provoking. I hope this will begin to see a few minds gently challenged to push their thinking forward.”
“Although I have a little collection building up, I’d love this to be the first Future Ireland piece. As it sets the tone – and the bar – perfectly.”
Sean
Congratulations. That is a real honour.
And to Ivan too.
Well done.
Richard
Nationalism to me is something that only needs to be brought out at a time of war – when there is an existential threat from force.
Other than that, I have no day to day use for it as an idea or ideology.
The safest place to express nationalism is in music – best not to use words which too easily offend – create musical notes instead. When I listen to Vaughan-Williams and Holst (and other British composers) I often see the English countryside in my mind’s eye which generates within me a deep affection for this country and its people and also a sense of belonging or empathy.
But other than that I would call myself an internationalist – I was brought up in a mixed racial society where race was not really the issue – it was whether or not you could get on with others that really mattered. I have lived and worked in London where I have seen people from all over the world work well together by finding what they have in common as human beings and pushing the racial/national differences aside.
Those who exploit nationalism in order to polarise opinion should be dealt with very severely. That is to say that as a result of the BREXIT referendum Leave campaign, Nigel Farage should still be in prison as far as I am concerned.
English composer Gustav Holst: sort of sums it up, n’est-pas?
Carol
If you mean the mixed nationality of Holst’s parents based in Cheltenham – yes.
Holst’s music does not sound German/Viennese to me. He was a close friend of Vaughan Williams who assiduously ironed out any Germanic influences to produce something English – distinct. I’m more proud of the music of Vaughan Williams, Holst, Walton, Britten, Parry , Elgar, Buttrworth and Tallis than any sporting achievement.
Pilgrim Slight Return,
The way in which music has a national characteristic has always been a mystery to me. I think I was first aware of it in the quality of Russian classical music which I found particularly appealing at a very early age…Tchaikovsky, particularly his violin concerto, was a favourite sound when I was about….four or five I think.
The quintessential Englishness ( I think of it as English rather than British, because Irish, Welsh and Scottish music means something else entirely to me) of Holst, Elgar and others you list is bizarre to me.
I’ve often wondered ‘How do they DO that? Perhaps I’d rather not know. It might spoil the magic, I suppose.
@ Pilgrim Slight Return “I’m more proud of the music of Vaughan Williams, Holst, Walton, Britten, Parry , Elgar, Buttrworth and Tallis than any sporting achievement.”
#MeToo
(Sorry)
But I so agree. Particularly the last who was Catholic in his Anglicanism and vice versa and who it seems to me thus was particularly English!
This misstates what I and I suspect, most other people understand by the word “nationalism”. To me, that word only means what is described above as “ethnic nationalism” or possibly ethno-religious nationalism. That’s why I loath nationalism. What is described above as “civic nationalism” is not, in my opinion, nationalism at all. I’d describe it a something like localism but there may be plenty of other appropriate descriptions.
My problem with this is that by creating the false impression of a warm, cosy type of nationalism, you provide a socially acceptable disguise for nationalists to hide behind. This is dangerous.
George the first says:
“This misstates what I and I suspect, most other people understand by the word “nationalism”. ”
I don’t think it correct to say this ‘misstates”.
I do however agree that the ethnic nationalism is what most people understand….but what most people understand has little to do with the words we use. Many people are in a sense illiterate (I don’t mean they can’t read and write after a fashion) in a way that makes rational discussion very difficult and confusing at times.
Sean’s piece for PP and Slugger O’T is headed by Lewis Carrol’s Humpty Dumpty reference..a word means precisely what I intend it to mean….. (or however it goes….)
Politicians and other mind controllers do this all the time. They abuse the meaning of words until black is white. And we wonder why there is discord in the world (?)
How exactly ‘populism’ which started life as the expression of the political ideal of ‘government of the people , by the people and for the people’ has become the go-to word for incipient fascist dictatorship is an interesting subject for serious consideration.
I regard Nationalism as the expression of the sentiment ‘My Country; right or wrong.’ That has been the password to death for millions across the ages.
Andy –
“How exactly ‘populism’ which started life as the expression of the political ideal of ‘government of the people , by the people and for the people’ has become the go-to word for incipient fascist dictatorship is an interesting subject for serious consideration.”
Language does funny things. I note that, due to continued and popular use by Millenials, the accepted definition of the word “Literally” is now “Figuratively” (or “used informally for emphasis whilst not actually being true”… which is pretty much the opposite of what the word originally meant). In many ways it’s good that language is so fluid… doesn’t stop it being confusing from time to time though!
“I regard Nationalism as the expression of the sentiment ‘My Country; right or wrong.’”
I don’t… I think the concept of “country” for a place like England is an ill fit. The Yorkshire view of England probably isn’t the same as the London or Cornwall view… so when we use “Nationalism”, who’s Nation would we be talking about and what would its characteristics be?
To my mind, Nationalism has taken on such a negative connotation that I can only define it as “an irrational and occasionally vehement rejection of The Other”. I struggle to see that as being a healthy approach to life, even if it is sometimes understandable when the pace of change becomes too much for people.
We have to remember that nationalism is as we see through it through our eyes
And we do not always see the same way
Nor do we see so consistently
That’s true of our language as well
So it’s not just right but proper that we do not always use language the same way and we need to check what we mean
Sean’s use of nationalism fits that understanding
Our job is to understand the other’s view
And then to unashamedly seek to change it when it is unacceptable, in our opinion
Geearkay says:
“Literally” is now “Figuratively” You can’t get away with blaming millennials for that I’m afraid. I’m turned sixty and ‘litchrally’ when I first met it in child hood meant ‘tantamount to’. It was a long time before I understood its derivation and literal (archaic) meaning. Like ‘cleave’ it now has two opposite meanings and the intended meaning is entirely dependent on context….and assumptions about the user ….which may be erroneous.
“The Yorkshire view of England probably isn’t the same as the London or Cornwall ….” Can’t speak for the Cornish, but the Yorkshire view ? Aye, well tha’s reight about that….. but only up to a point. Because there is no consistent Yorkshire voice or opinion. Arthur Scargill and Wossname Haig..the former Tory party leader were both Yorkshiremen. (Barnsley and Wath on Dearne are not even geographically distant within South Yorkshire….which is not East, West or North Yorkshire.
If you wish to regard “an irrational and occasionally vehement rejection of The Other” as a definition of ‘Nationalism’ you render redundant the, still meaningful word, ‘Xenophobia’.
“Our job is to understand the other’s view
And then to unashamedly seek to change it……”
I think a full stop would be fine there, Richard. 🙂
It reminds me of the oft quoted ‘joke’ (?) in our family…’Go and see what the children are doing….and tell then to stop it.’
🙂
This is quite similar to a way i have been thinking for a while, contrasting Welsh, Scottish and now Catalan nationalism with say English or German nationalism/supremacy. The former are peoples whose culture is oppressed or denigrated and whose nationalism is in opposition to that opposition and not about ethnic superiority.
Graham BC it’s not just about the culture being ignored and oppressed: it’s the realisation that governance by another nation which has little interest in the affairs of the devolved nations beyond the extraction of wealth invariably results in economies being held back, opportunities missed, failure to meet full potential (at a personal and national level), lack of political representation at sovereign state level etc. Sooner or later the devolved nations waken up to the fact that they could manage their own affairs better and that’s what has happened in Scotland and Catalonia, and may yet happen in Wales and NI.
I can only speak for what I’ve seen happen in Scotland since devolution in 1999. A sea change happened after SNP came to power: suddenly there was the political will to make changes for the better. A classic example is the improvement to infrastructure, where some motorway projects that had been planned as far back as the early 1960s were updated and implemented. The results were dramatic in the Glasgow area where rush hour congestion was vastly reduced giving an incalculable benefit to the economy, environment and commuters’ frayed nerves. The M74 extension across the city’s south side took 50 years of dilly-dallying by the Scottish Office and an overlapping 10 years by the first Labour government in devolved Scotland before it was swiftly revived, revised and implemented by the first SNP government.
Given that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its wishes by Brexit and given the chaotic governance of the UK by the Tories, it’s becoming obvious to an increasing number of Scots that we couldn’t make a bigger mess of running our own affairs and, with a policy of inclusivity and putting the people’s interests first, it could be a much better place to live in (in spite of the weather).
Ken Mathieson says:
“[Scotland] could be a much better place to live in (in spite of the weather).
There’s nothing wrong with the weather in Scotland that couldn’t be improved by a decent Scottish replacement for the BBC, which was allowed to do forecasting without a consistent unionist bias. 🙂
Graham BC says:
“…….Welsh, Scottish and now Catalan nationalism with say English or German nationalism/supremacy…..”
I’m not entirely confident you are correct about the reasons you offer, to do with “……culture … oppressed or denigrated…” , but it’s a highly plausible explanation. Quite where the line between cause and effect comes into play here is probably a PhD topic in itself…maybe more than one.
There is certainly IMO a stark contrast between a nationalism which celebrates identity, and a nationalism which believes in its own superiority. Different means ‘different’; it doesn’t mean ‘better than’.
British and American ‘exceptionalism’ is largely born of accepting wholesale the Biblical tradition of the Children of Israel being ‘God’s chosen people’, and adopting it as a national mindset, slightly modified, so that it was possible to repeat the witticism ‘God is an Englishman’ without any sense of irony surviving.
In our modern world we have a western alliance that purports to be giving the gift of democracy to the benighted (at the barrel of a gun) ….despite that obvious fact that not the UK, EU nor the US operate a political system which can be described as anything other than elite plutocracy. It is almost as if we think we’re now above democracy and are giving it away because we have no further use for it, but it’s good enough for the other peoples of the world.
And we all know it’s to do with money, oil (and other resources) and power.
Somebody should DO something about it,
Disgusted (not of Tonbridge Wells)
The problem with “Nationalism” as a word is that its a contranym: eg. such as Cleave: “cut apart” also means “bind together”…
It’s not that civic nationalism is just “a bit distinct” from ethnic nationalism: its the antithesis. Of course pretending that they mean the same thing has been very useful in Scotland as a device to smear the Independence movement as xenophobic.
My own “Nationalist” identity ends with the achievement of Independence for Scotland when it then becomes a redundant concept .
There is undoubtedly an English nationalism, but there is also a British nationalism whose members come from all four home nations.
There are those for whom it is a civic nationalism as described above and there are those for whom it is something else, perhaps based on a concepts such as British “exceptionalism”, whose anthems are Rule, Britannia! and Land of Hope and Glory; but also, with shades of ethnicity: British Jobs for British Workers (Gordon Brown and others); and of course class, verging on racism – Duncan Smith’s “low-value, low-skilled people” entering the country (you might also say Osborne’s disdain for the low income British as “not our voters” while simultaneously protecting the rich was defining who was really British in the eyes of Tories).
And there is the fundamentally undemocratic version: “Now is not the time” (May); or not until 2017 (Ruth Davidson) or Willie Rennie of the Liberals in Scotland demanding a 2nd Brexit referendum while ruling out a Scottish one; and finally you can just resort to insults in asserting your British nationalism – insulting those who you don’t really consider British a la Johnson and the Burka jibe or any nasty foreigners who refuse to do your bidding a la Hunt comparing the EU to the USSR.
The meaning of nationalism was endlessly debated during the indy ref.
So I looked in the dictionary, I think this was from the online OED:
1
Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
‘an early consciousness of nationalism and pride’



* 1.1 An extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.‘playing with right-wing nationalism’

* 1.2 Advocacy of political independence for a particular country.‘Scottish nationalism’
1 is perfectly harmless
1.1 Choose your own examples ! Scots are famous for their inferiority complex, “the Scottish cringe”
1.2 That is the OED’s example, not mine.
For citizens of a nation-state with a seat at the UN, this meaning would never spring to mind as they take it for granted.
Mark Ryle says:
‘ Scots are famous for their inferiority complex, “the Scottish cringe”…’
Modesty was once considered to be a British virtue. Much spoken of but rarely seen.
When you know you’re right and you know you’re ‘the best’ you don’t have to shout about it.
What is important in real terms is what we think we mean by being ‘the best’.
It will be rude to offer a personal example , but I’m going to anyway. Boris Johnson is the best. The Best Boris Johnson. In the same way as the Austin Allegro was the best Austin Allegro.
Anybody with the misfortune to have owned one would probably rather have had a car for the seventies rather than one which would have been pretty good in the immediate aftermath of WW2.
Andy Crow – on Nationalism in Music and ‘How do they do that?’
Well Andy I think it is from folk music I believe! Folk music originated out of story telling in cultures around the world – it goes back a long way alongside human development. It’s a fundamental thing in cultures.
This applies to the European mainland too – one of my favourite Czech composers (Janacek) was into his folk music making his own compositions rather unique. And so was Vaughan-Williams and many of his fellow English composers. Even the mighty Beethoven was known to take an interest in this genre and I believe a folk theme makes an appearance in his lovely Pastoral symphony.
Folk music is different all around the world – not only in terms of how the musical scales are used but more importantly the key thing is that they are also rather distinct rhythmically. Norwegian folk songs say have a much different beat to Italian ones and so on and so on.
One of the musical scales that seems to be found across the world is the Pentatonic scale (supposedly more simple than major and minor scales with fewer notes) which is the same scale used in Japan and blues (even jazz) music in the US. It is just that each culture chooses different notes upon which to place emphasis within the scale. And that is what makes it different.
For instance, Vaughan William’s ‘Theme on Thomas Tallis’, he uses what sounds to me as the Phrygian mode – a scale that is closely associated with Spanish/flamenco music. But I think that as anyone knows the piece will testify, it does not sound Spanish at all. It sounds like (well) elegiac English Elizabethan music no doubt in homage to Tallis the composer. It’s Vaughan Williams’ choice of notes in that scale that gives the result it gives.
It’s fascinating stuff. But I think that the folk connection is how they do it. Unless anyone knows better.
Pilgrim,
I wasn’t going to respond to Andy’s musical questions as I’m far too busy with my own musical workload just now and thought the topic was a bit too off-topic for this site. However, you’ve done the heavy lifting on this one and you’re spot-on about indigenous folk music shaping the musical thinking of composers. Likewise about the scale systems common to those folk cultures: they shape the melodic and harmonic contours of the music and in turn influence the composer’s thinking. Rhythm, likewise, reflects the indigenous dance traditions and influences the composer. It’s central to the “national” feel of any composition.
However since the widespread availability of recordings and the dominance of rock rhythms in pop music everywhere there’s been a homogenisation of music of all kinds. Dizzy Gillespie famously described the dominance of rock rhythms as “the Tyranny of the Backbeat” and you’ll hear it everywhere – e.g disco drumming in Ceilidh bands playing Scottish Country Dance music! In my view it’s robbing us of a vital distinguishing feature of music, so you can hear a pop record on the radio and be unable to tell where it comes from (although the language can give you a clue). I’m all for cross-pollination in music, but not if it results in loss of distinctiveness.
To get back to this site’s normal topics, the root of the problem lies in the commercialisation and monetisation of the music industry. Some music (from all genres) will have durability and lasting influence, but much of it is for instant consumption. Many musicians of my acquaintance regard define the latter as “a musical product”, with a similar relationship to “real music” as a burger to prime steak.
None of this answers Andy’s question about just how do composers do it, but that’s a topic too far O/T for here.
Is Folk Music National or is it more location orientated? I suspect there are many folk musics in any area we now call a Nation and I also suspect there are as many similarities as there are differences. But I am totally ignorant on the subject.
But there is another kind of nationalistic type of music, especially when it is accompanied by lyrics, which might be better described as jingoistic, such as the two pieces I mentioned earlier (and Rule, Britannia was written by a Scotsman, I have just discovered, oh the shame!) and which are the apotheosis of the Proms, the Last Night’s orgy of jingoistic British exceptionalism – that I refuse to listen to. Then there’s the verse of God Save the Queen with its insulting references to Scots – and numerous other verses apparently added to insult others offended by being omitted. Of course Scotland has its own jingoistic dirges, such as Flower of Scotland or Scots Wha Hae, which at least has the merit of being poetry.
Shostakovich had to steer a careful line between being true to his artistic imperatives and producing works which would keep him alive under Stalin, which meant nodding towards Stalin’s vision of nationalism. Then there’s the problem of Wagner, a man of undoubted antisemitic views, appropriated by Hitler for nationalistic purposes, but the writer of sublime operas.
Yes G Hewitt – a good point about localism in the national setting – I get that. There can therefore be many variations of nationalistic music within one nation. Interesting.
I have always liked Parry’s ‘Jerusalem’ myself – I wish we’d sing that at national sporting events or even a version of ‘I Vow to Thee My Country’ updated to say take into account Richard’s vision of a courageous state serving the people and a new social contract between the people and the state based on mutual benefit and obligations.
I am amused by that
Shostakovich – now you’re talking….
Carol Wilcox says:
“Shostakovich — now you’re talking….”
Nah ! That’ll be the Vodka you’re hearing 🙂
I always wondered how Stalin could tell whether Dmitri’s music was politically correct.
There’s such a lot I don’t ‘get’ about music. I love so much of it, but haven’t a clue what it’s ‘about’.
I guess it’s like ‘Art’ as in paintings….”I don’t know anything about art, but I know what I like”. (?)
Excellent article. Having grown up leary of ethnic nationalism from my years in England, it took a while on moving to Scotland to appreciate how utterly different civic nationalism is, and the 2014 Indyref campaign to really bring it home. I’m now happy to say I’m on the side of Scottish civic nationalism, and that it’s clear from here that what England needs is to develop its own civic nationalism. That’s the project for the next few decades or generation or two.
May I offer thanks to those who have shared their knowledge of music.
Folk music roots seem to be the vital ingredient.
Bartok’s music was very fashionable at one stage on the concert circuit,…. decades back now….and it seemed to be obligatory that if you wanted to hear some nice music you had to sit through some Bartok aswell.
It was a recording of the folk music that inspired his work that made Bartok digestible to my ears….suddenly I knew what he was playing with. Almost like understanding a foreign language. The academic musos who ‘discovered’ Bartok might have done well to play us the root music before they tried to foist the classic sophisticated version on to us. ?
I discovered that by serendipity. It’s abrasive to our ears….but I love abrasive music. I like it raw. When I get bored with it raw or it’s a bit tough, like a poor steak, then it’s rather good to cook it and maybe, just maybe add some condiments. But you don’t need to do that to a good fillet.
No British choir ever made a sound like this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZQzW_QfPew ) and I loved it from first hearing. But I can enjoy other flavours too. Tallis, Taverner (either of them) and Bird et al as well as the Europeans some of whom were ‘quite good’ considering….. The Verdis , Guiseppe and Monty wrote some splendid tunes. 🙂
I discovered Welsh Penillion by mistake looking for the more popular male voice choirs of the industrial valleys. I was very disappointed with my purchase until I’d listened to it several times.
Seriously thanks to those who care enough about music to have spent some time writing about it….and apologies to the political economy nerds who are much too busy to be bothered with such trivial things.
I have much enjoyed this thread that has had a life all of its own….
I live with a son who has reintroduced me to folk
And other themes have reminded me of music loving not listened to. Thank you, all