I was talking to a Labour politician last night. He was quite confident of several things. The first was that ‘blue on blue' action will continue. Second, He thought May will survive despite that. Third, Labour has no appetite for a general election.
I think there is some evidence that all are correct. But that is not a complete reading of the situation. The reality is that we are in a deepening mess and that at some time analysis on pure party lines makes almost no sense at all. That's because it is now obvious that May will not have a majority for any Brexit deal, whatever she does. In other words, it is only with Opposition support, either from Labour or other parties, that any Brexit deal will now be passed, if at all. The question is not, then, whether May will survive, which I suspect she will, but what her survival as Prime Minister, solely on the basis that no one lese wants the job, means?
That entirely depends on how Labour and the SNP react to this situation. May knows she needs them. Both say they want Brexit deals. Neither wants us to crash out. So the basis for compromise exists. But I have no idea what price they will extract for their support.
In the case of the SNP the deal to be made is not hard to imagine. It is devolving the powers to Scotland that it should have if the UK is not in Brussels. This I can imagine May conceding. And it may be a written agreement to a second independence referendum, although I think that unlikely. That may be still enough to get May all the votes she neeeds given that the chance that Labour will successfully whip its MPs on any Brexit issue is low.
But what deals would Labour try to extract if it could? That's my big problem, because I simply do not now what they might be. I literally can't be sure. What they seem to want is something like the PM is offering now, which provides them with a hopeless negotiating position. And I am vague, deliberately. ‘Something like' is as good as it gets in analytical terms on this issue. In that case what can the Labour front bench extract to what advantage? And if they cannot agree on that will they let no deal happen?
I wish I knew the answer to that. I don't. And so the Tories will instead rely on 70 or so Remain Labour MPs to break ranks with Corbyn and carry the Tory Remain Brexit through.
It's a mighty mess for everyone. Not least the Left. And that's to be regretted. I'm bored with Labour thinking that ‘blue on blue' action is enough to bring it to power. It isn't. But they still do not know what is. And the time to decide is fast running out.
Thanks for reading this post.
You can share this post on social media of your choice by clicking these icons:
You can subscribe to this blog's daily email here.
And if you would like to support this blog you can, here:
A good reflection.
In my view Labour (particularly the Corbyn Refuseniks) need to realise that it is being dictated to by the Tory Government whose modus operandi is always ‘divide and conquer’.
Even though the Refuseniks detect an opportunity to hurt Corbyn with anything it seems that they can use, they should just back off for now so that some form of concrete BREXIT idea/policy can be more fully formed so that Labour can become the alternative Government in waiting that we so desperately need.
To the Refuseniks I say that Theresa May is not your Leader; Corbyn is, so shut your mouths, stop causing trouble and think about the people of this country and what they have had to put up with for the last 8 years or so.
I’m a long standing LP member and one of your so called “refuseniks” and I’ll not shut up when I see our leader fail to put the interests of our country before Party political advantage. Corbyn fails to articulate how LAbour will manage Brexit and how he could implement Labour’s programme while living with The consequences. “Refuseniks therefore have a duty to shout out – not shut up.
Mr Allen
Well – thank you for being honest but please allow me to congratulate you and you mates on your rather mislaid sense of duty and the damage that has done to your democratically appointed leader.
As a longstanding Labour voter I do not hear anyone in the Labour party articulating anything at the moment with regard to BREXIT because of people like you putting so called principles before loyalty and even before the needs of the people of this country.
The British public does not like disunited political parties. Do you understand? The Tories with their BREXIT madness have got you and the Labour party right where they want you.
My advice to you still stands: Get behind your leader and give him the confidence to bring forth policy.
In other words shut up and behave yourselves. If you give a jot about alleviating the people of this country from austerity and giving us a future – shutting up is what you will do or be damned Sir.
Thankfully, I am not in a party
“Thankfully, I am not in a party”
It’s a sad indictment of the state of politics and democracy that you say that.
Sadly I agree. The only party I would cheerfully join would have balloons and something to drink, and maybe some nibbles.
But no clowns, please
Jon Allen says:
“I’m a long standing LP member and one of your so called “refuseniks” and I’ll not shut up when I see our leader fail to put the interests of our country before Party political advantage. ”
Well, Jon, I think you are deeply confused about what constitutes national and or party interest. And if what you term ‘long standing’ membership somehow got you through the Blair Brown regime with your party card in one piece I wonder what you think the Labour Party is for.
Because I’m damned if I do.
“But no clowns, please”
Magician…..?
Too many claiming to be those already
I’ll try to sound out an ‘in-the-know’ Labour MP I’m meeting today. Lot’s of other issues to discuss – I hope we get some decent time, but you never know when they might get called away. My instinct is that they want Brexit, glad not to have to deal with it and eager for GE as soon as possible after.
As you say the 70 or so Labour leave MPs are very much the issue here. I’ve no idea who the MP was who you spoke to, but I’m willing to bet that he wasn’t one representing one of the heavily pro-leave constituencies that make up a lot of Labour’s ‘heartland’.
Since some soul searching in the months immediately after the referendum there’s been precious little evidence of a particular care for what circumstances brought so many people to vote Leave (present company excepted). The debate, such as it is, has long since returned to statements from the usual suspects about how ‘we’ are all going to be worse off ‘because trade’ (all endlessly honked around by the awful #FBPE I’m-alright-Jackers). The problem is that inside the EU too many of ‘we’ did not (and IMHO were never going to) feel the benefits.
Blue-on-blue action may well not be enough to bring Labour to power, but neither will giving the Tories a golden opportunity to portray them as completely indifferent to the views of many of their ‘core voters’. Currently we’ve no idea what the Tory Government will look like next month, let alone next March — so throwing themselves under the wheels of Theresa May’s runaway coach when there’s no evidence that doing so would stop it would be folly right now.
So Labour needs a negotiating position
What is it?
I reckon the only (Labour) solution is, bearing in mind that a clean break with the EU is completely impossible because of the Irish border, to have a second and binding referendum on the deal that is eventually agreed or indeed not; or rescind article 50, and stay and keep a say.
Probably what a referendum has done can only be undone by the same method – as it is the only way to avoid charges of ‘ignoring the will of the people’.
A more likely second referendum would be between no deal and whatever deal is negotiated.
John Price says:
“A more likely second referendum would be between no deal and whatever deal is negotiated.”
And this sums up what is wrong with the way Brexit has been approached.
The default position should always have been status quo until such a time as a negotiated arrangement is agreed.
‘No Deal’ is not a real world option. Unless it means ‘as you were’. The UK cannot have no relationship with the EU. (The continent would be completely isolated 🙂 )
My own Labour MP is a dullard with some suspicious voting habits. I guess one can’t scale up to the rest from him, but I can’t remember when Labour last had policy positions. Back to Wilson maybe? The party has allowed ‘the will of the people’ spoofing to go unchallenged despite its association with Nazi times and ignored the obviously defective campaigns on both sides before the vote. I might write about the need for a counterknowledge. John Cleese got most of this right on Newsnight. On what we’ve seen so far I’d vote to become a federal state of Germany. Policy is hard to make once reason is discarded for the guessing game of democratic epistemology reduced to chasing a majority. My MP believes the shadow cabinet is waiting it out for May to make the public so uncomfortable about her they will sweep in on the basis of the serial bungling of the PM. He moved away as I asked on what manifesto mumbling ‘change’. My guess is this is a longer game than we think and the Brexit outcome much less important for the Club of Westminster than it will be for us via the economy. May can survive unless there is a leadership challenge, hardly much to do with any will of the people, Labour are waiting for a long off election fought in the ruins. We need something else entirely.
archytas says:
“My own Labour MP is a dullard with some suspicious voting habits…..”
His or her identity is thus discretely concealed as well as an individual tree in a wood 😉
Standing back from the details, it’s striking how clear it is becoming that the electoral and party system, and indeed physical layout at Westminster, are unfit for purpose. Both main parties contain a range of subgroups which to a large extent overlap with those of the other party and/or the smaller parties, but they are unable to work with their natural allies. Two main parties and first-past-the-post and the oppositional layout in the House of Commons, all of which support each other, deliver a system in which nothing of the scale of the Brexit question can be resolved.
I suspect that this dysfunction may well result in not only the dissolution of the U.K., but also a new proportional electoral system for England and a new fit-for-purpose building to house the reformed English Commons. We can look forward to the Palace of Westminster becoming an excellent Museum of Democracy.
With regard to the current chaos, I still think the most likely course is continued inability of the UK government (of whatever composition) to come up with a durable plan acceptable to the EU. By the end of the year the EU will lay out four options, and say pick one and if you don’t you get the last: stay in, Norway, Canada, no-deal. At that point the U.K. may get it together to choose, but if so then domestic politics will have to have changed so much it’s impossibke to predict the choice or the manner of making it. It’s quite possible no choice is made in which case there will be emergency side deals, very much to U.K. disadvantage, to keep planes flying and critical food and medicine moving.
Interesting times!
Nigel Goddard says:
“Standing back from the details, it’s striking how clear it is becoming that the electoral and party system, and indeed physical layout at Westminster, are unfit for purpose.”
I would argue that the geographical location (in London) is also increasingly inappropriate.
An excellent point Nigel, the way things are going in the farce called Westminster politics, it’ll probably be the EU that has to take control of the whole Brexit process, and say here are the options………CHOOSE ONE, IDIOTS!
Lets hope to God there are enough sane people in Westminster to make sure it isn’t the Brexit cultists favoured one of wrecking the UK economy.
And I agree that Westminster needs to go, and be replaced by a modern building, with modern ways of working, with a proper voting system. Preferably centrally placed in England, and not in London, as you note Andy.
From a voter perspective it’s difficult to see where Labour can go with ‘Brexit’. Chaotic though the situation is, because it’s an issue that transcends traditional party lines, Labour doesn’t have an ‘exclusive’ solution with any unique appeal. This leaves TM in a relatively strong position as the best available person to represent the country in order to reach some (any) level of accommodation with the EU. I don’t get the impression it’s a time when the public would choose to rock an already leaking boat. Labour has to be careful not to be seen as making the crisis worse.
The Labour Brexit tests are contradictory if you class FOM as a benefit of the Single Market.
“That’s because it is now obvious that May will not have a majority for any Brexit deal, whatever she does. In other words, it is only with Opposition support, either from Labour or other parties, that any Brexit deal will now be passed, if at all.”
Which means that at long last, after a lot of shilly-shallying we have what we voted for in GE17; a coalition approach to Brexit.
If May is actually prepared to accept this sort of ‘coalition compromise’ and the ‘opposition’ parties are focussed on salvaging something (anything) from the Brexit shambles rather than using the opportunity for party advantage we just might get somewhere.
ERG can be sidelined (pretend they are a separate extremist headbanger faction, which IMO they are) if the other parties are prepared to support sensible policy and not care under whose party banner it stands.
We can’t sensibly have a GE this autumn without a Tory Party leadership contest first. There is not time to be fannying about like this, the Tory Party would in effect be holding the country to ransom to sort it’s own internal differences.
And the likelihood is that a GE would simply produce another hung(ish) parliament.
The people have spoken. Politicians should be listening. The referendum was close and GE17 confirmed that lack of clear majority intent.
The declared will of the people is …..”Meh ? Sort it !”
If May is uncertain about assembling sufficient votes in Parliament for her Brexit Plan (assuming it’s agreeable to the EU in some final form) I suspect she’ll be tempted to run it past the UK electorate by way of a second Brexit referendum. If approved by the electorate it will be very difficult for Corbyn to be hypocritical and not instruct his party to vote for it given he supported the democratic will of the people on the 2016 EU referendum. If May takes this path and wins public support Corbyn will have screwed up big time!
Schofield says:
” If May takes this path and wins public support Corbyn will have screwed up big time! ”
Given Corbyn’s stated preference for getting out of the EU (leading a party which is deeply divided on the issue) I don’t see how that is a screw-up. As a matter of party advantage when it all goes to bagwash he can still blame the Tories for the mess even if it is what he would have done anyway.
Corbyn screwed up by undermining the Progressive Alliance into GE17. Unless he was campaigning to be in opposition in which case it was a triumph.
Andy Crow says … “he [Corbyn] can still blame the Tories for the mess even if it is what he would have done anyway.
Yeah, but … if he wins then, how can he fund the pricey social reforms that feed his popularity? What can he do to repair the human damage of years of austerity? Corbyn needs to inherit a healthy economy – not the smoking ruins of Brexit Britain, sliding into recession. His vision would turn to dust and at the next election the Tories would bury him, convincing a hard-of-thinking amnesiac electorate that the Brexit mess and recession were all Labour’s fault.
Corbyn should be polishing his image as Mr Honesty and saying that – much as he respects the referendum result [Vote Leave officials have escaped justice as I write this] – Brexit is only achievable with a large helping of economic damage, meaning mass unemployment, soaring homelessness and minimal public services. For that reason, Labour can no longer support it and will now fight to end Brexit and the unacceptable poverty it will inflict upon the nation.
We approach the point now – with dire warnings from major manufacturers and government talk of food shortages after Brexit – where that honest message would land on fertile ground.
People are becoming more and more aware that Brexit is a con with a dark sub-plot that has nothing to do with freedom, sovereignty or taking back control. Quite the opposite.
Barely had I forgotten my joy over the new, Croatia style, UK passports that offer me domicile in one – not merely thirty two – nations, when I was thrilled to the news of Theresa May’s plan to stockpile food – an insurance against a Mogg-esque, ‘push-the-button-marked-suicide’ hard Brexit that would, thanks to its clever non-design, critically disrupt daily food imports.
Theresa had her go with blue passports. Another kamikaze leader should choose the colour of our rations books. Jeremy might favour sepia to capture the 1950s mood of plucky Brexit Britain, standing isolated on its own two proud feet in a field of root vegetable magnificence.
I recall in ration-time childhood having a quarter-slice of toast with baked beans, or a boiled egg halved to share with my brother. Despite the frugal ingenuity of my mother’s cooking, we were both skinny and perpetually hungry.
That decisive majority of over-65s who voted Leave out of their yearning for a reconstructed Britain of the past may soon be reminded that nostalgia isn’t what it used to be.
Indeed….
Ah yes – Croatia’s blue passports…… Curious and ironic that blue passport Croatia wants in to the EU and is in the World Cup Final, and England seeks blue passports and falls out of the EU and the WC.
And again, ironically, England will play Belgium – capital Brussels – while Macron’s (and Barnier’s) France will probably win the WC.
I know……….delicious isn’t it Mike? And in the end, the better team won. Incidentally, I see one of the Croations was saying they used the arrogant attitude of much of the British (or should that be English?) media towards Croatia’s chances to spur themselves on.
Oh dear. English exceptionalism comes a cropper yet again. Anyone for Brexit?
Jon Woods says:
“Barely had I forgotten my joy over the new, Croatia style, UK passports …..”
Better not to mention Croatia again for a while 🙂
I’m depressed that most MPs from left and right seem to think that which of the two main parties gets to mismanage the UK for the next five years is more important than whether and how the UK leaves the EU. Get over yourselves people; it isn’t.
The UK’s international standing and the health, wealth, happiness and wellbeing of its people for the next generation or two trump your petty, short-term tribal loyalties. Please just do what you know is right and to hell with the short term consequences for your party and your career therein.
Interesting take on the internal struggles taking place within the EU:-
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/07/political-representation-european-people.html#comment-2995221
Thanks, Schofield. Heavy duty, interesting analysis. It does not sugar-coat the EU’s record, but dismisses Brexit as a viable alternative. All too often, the EU is parodied either as an undemocratic juggernaut, or a faultless international love-fest. The complicated truth rests inconveniently between the two, but the acid test for me is pretty basic:
What better promises our young a safer, more prosperous life, broader opportunities in the world and a level of welfare, health care and services that does not disgrace the country?
Never in a million years will Brexit be the answer to that one.
Absolutely right – that is why the position of the shadow cabinet, particularly the “remainers” amongst them, is so irresponsible – and despite Andy Crow’s comment above, demonstrates a clear preference for tactical party political advantage over putting the material and security interests of the country first. In Brexit we are witnessing a comprehensive failure of the political class as we head to a potential full blown constitutional crisis.
Jon Allen says:
” In Brexit we are witnessing a comprehensive failure of the political class as we head to a potential full blown constitutional crisis.”
Can’t argue with that, Jon. Both main parties just as bad,
Tories only seem worse because David Cameron pressed the button and then ran away after failing to win his position. Actually he also made his successors position nigh impossible by first assimilating the loony right into his party instead of pointing them towards UKIP.
Corbyn for his part is confounded by the Blairites. Both main parties are now too broad a church to be fit for purpose. What are voters to do except hold their noses and pray ?
Apparently no comments yet about the SNP. I am English but have lived in Scotland for nearly 25 years, and things look very different from here. We voted over 60% to Remain and continued membership of the EU was one promise that secured the 55% No to independence vote in 2014. The SNP, quite rightly, will take their mandate to be for no Brexit at all. Our Parliament has already voted to hold another independence referendum once the details of Brexit become clearer. Westminster is failing to demonstrate we are ‘Better Together’ in the UK and several commentators have remarked that Scotland is now the only part of the UK with a working government. Our NHS and other public services are doing well. And the frankly disgraceful, schoolboy sneering attitude towards Scotland exhibited by the Conservatives is not going to win the Union any friends here. So I cannot see the SNP doing anything to support Brexit. There is a steady growth going on here in support for independence and I think it is just a matter of time. The House of Commons has unanimously agreed the claim of right which asserts the sovereignty of the Scottish people here, so we do not need Westminster’s permission to withdraw from the UK. And once Brexit happens I know which side of the Scottish border I’ll be on
John,
I’m not affiliated to any political party, but have been an advocate of Scottish independence since having my political awareness aroused in 1970s Brasil. Being away from one’s homeland sharpens one’s understanding of the homeland and I came to the conclusion back then that it was inconceivable that the Scots could make a bigger mess of running our own affairs than had been done on our behalf by successive Westminster governments over a long period.
That view has been reinforced ever since, but particularly in the last two years of increasing chaos. However, there is a huge hurdle to overcome in the shape of the outrageously biased Scottish media before we see a significant swing towards self-determination. Since the 2014 referendum I’ve never thought that Scotland would be the instigator of its own independence: I’ve always thought that the inherent political instability of N Ireland and the DUP in particular would be the prime mover in the collapse of the Union. Any slight (real or perceived), or any endangering of the Good Friday Agreement, or any insoluble border issue might see the
withdrawal of the DUP’s support of the Tory government.
If the Supreme Court rules that the Scottish Parliament’s EU Withdrawal Bill is incompetent, as I think likely, it might stir up enough fury in Scotland to fuel the swing towards independence, but I perceive a general inertia at a time when Scotland should head for the lifeboats and look after its own interests.
Ken Mathieson says:
“….. but I perceive a general inertia at a time when Scotland should head for the lifeboats and look after its own interests.”
Have you seen film of a swan swimming, Ken ? All serene and calm on the surface, but under the water the flippers are working overtime.
You and I need to do our part with the voters at street level. I don’t buy ‘inertia’. Team Nicola has plenty to do. Aswell as the day job.
Keep your eye on the swan, while Westminster cooks its goose.
John Wood says:
Apparently no comments yet about the SNP [……..] And once Brexit happens I know which side of the Scottish border I’ll be on.
Agree with all that; the bit between the square brackets.
There is only one consistent comment about SNP: SNP baad ! Notice how Nicola Sturgeon signally failed to score a single goal against Croatia just to spite England soccer fans. She clearly wasn’t trying.
I have been on this side of the border considerably less than twenty-five years, but I have no intention of going back. S’good ‘ere.
Agreed – I’ll be straight into the queue for a Scottish passport as soon as it opens.
Andy Crow says: “Nicola Sturgeon signally failed to score a single goal against Croatia just to spite England soccer fans. She clearly wasn’t trying.”
Apparently, a certain Mr Carmichael got it on good authority from the French Ambassador (whose team are already in the final) that she would prefer Croatia to win.
“…..she [Nicola] would prefer Croatia to win.”
Me too, G.
If I actually cared. England has won once. That’ll do me, I was supporting them then, or at least in favour of them winning and pleased that they did.
I haven’t had the capacity to be interested in another World Cup since. I quit while I was ahead. 🙂
I wonder what odds the bookies are offering for Scotland in ’22 ? Might be worth a poond.
John, Ken and Andy. Very much agree that Scotland is being treated disgracefully in this whole Brexit shambles. And that the case for an independent Scotland is getting stronger by the day, as a result.
As an Englishman living in SE England, I’d like to offer you an apology, on behalf of a bunch of people who never will apologise to you, blinded as they are by their own arrogance, stupidity and dishonesty.
So I’m issuing you an apology from the dishonest English politicians and journalists behind Brexit, and an apology from the stupid Leave voters for believing their drivel.
sickoftaxdodgers says:
Appreciated. Not as fulsome as this, (which Richard has posted before , but probably overdue for a reprise). but welcome anyway. I’m sure you will continue to be welcome as a visitor, and there’s much to see and enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVy7faNKEtM
In response to Andy Crow: I notice that England were beaten by Croatia, a smaller and poorer country than Scotland which only gained its own independence in the 1990s. And that their determination was increased (they say) by the attitude of the England team and fans. I think it’s a blessed relief that they won and the whole Jingoistic carnival and bad behaviour will now be over for a bit. But if Croatia can come from nowhere to beat England, perhaps next time around, Scotland can! As for apologies, sickoftaxfodgers, none required as far as I’m concerned. You are not responsible for this mess!
I like it John, an analogy between Croatia beating England at football, and Scotland gaining independence. Yes, I’m not that sorry England lost, since if we’d won the World Cup there probably would have been an upsurge in chest beating nationalism. As it is, Croatia played better and showed England to be an OK, but not brilliant side.
That’s alright, a semi-final in the World Cup is nothing to be ashamed of – unlike our present wretched politics. You’re right, I, and plenty of other decent, intelligent English people aren’t responsible for this. Unfortunately, a large number of unpleasant and/or stupid English people are.
I don’t think calling those who disagree with you unpleasant or stupid will win your cause ( whatever that is anyway ). Surely in a democracy all are entitled to an opinion without being described as unpleasant or stupid.
I doubt very much that Nicola Sturgeon has much interest in football. But she is a canny politician so hooking into any anti English feeilng will suit her agenda – fair play to her in footie parlance. A game of two half’s indeed ( next referendum coming our way soon ). Half the country probably want one and half don’t. Way to unite a nation don’t you think? And another resounding 50/50ish result for no one . It is simple U.K. wide really , make the trains run on time ( in south of England just now and it’s like a third world country with filthy streets , cancelled trains and crap or non existent WiFi – can’t wait to get back to Glasgow ) , sort out the NHS and educate our kids for the modern world. How hard can it be ? Ideology just gets in the way.
Michael says:
“( next referendum coming our way soon ).” ……. Not too soon I hope and it would be foolish not to have clarity about Brexit before calling one, which is Nicola’s position, unchanged by GE17. (Despite MSM claims of change of policy and putting indy ‘back’ on the backburner. ) As you say she’s a canny politician – possibly the best in Britain currently (which could be to damn her with faint praise considering the other candidates)
“And another resounding 50/50ish result for no one .” That would do no good at all, and be divisive as you say, but the reality of what a bad Brexit could do to Scotland’s economic prospects could shift that opinion quite markedly. I think/feel it is shifting, but I don’t take notice of the opinion polls.
We must be patient. I fear that even May’s softer Brexit will do Scotland no favours. And that assumes she can even deliver it, which is still in question – even her continued premiership is in question, given her own party attack dogs might turn on her.
I fear also the extent to which post-Brexit trade with the US (which Brexiteers seem to relish and rely on) will rip open the public services which are already so fragile here in Britain. Anybody who thinks the EU has been difficult to negotiate with will get a reality check when it comes to trying to negotiate with the US. Trump goes head to head with China. We (the UK in its entirety) have no weight, we’ll be a pushover.
It could be the cue for a ‘sharp exit’ for Scotland. To hell with the past history; it’s the future we are going to be living in and that’s a very uncertain place, and it’ll be what we make it.
I doubt very much that Nicola Sturgeon has much interest in football. But she is a canny politician so hooking into any anti English feeilng will suit her agenda — fair play to her in footie parlance. A game of two half’s indeed Half the country probably want one and half don’t. Way to unite a nation don’t you think? It is simple U.K. wide really , make the trains run on time ( in south of England just now and it’s like a third world country with filthy streets , cancelled trains and crap or non existent WiFi — can’t wait to get back to Glasgow ) , sort out the NHS and educate our kids for the modern world. How hard can it be ? Ideology just gets in the way.
Michael, I don’t think Sturgeon will be tapping into anti English feeling, so much as anti- Westminster feeling. And given the utter shambles that Brexit has become, and the arrogance of the Conservatives in Westminster in denying the SNP a proper debate on Brexit’s implications for the devolution of powers, what reasonable person could blame the Scots for being anti-Westminster?
And if you’re being anti-Scottish independence as I think you are, haven’t you contradicted yourself by the following? “( in south of England just now and it’s like a third world country with filthy streets , cancelled trains and crap or non existent WiFi — can’t wait to get back to Glasgow )”
Doesn’t that imply Scotland is a better run country than England? And how long have the SNP been in power in Scotland? Are you saying there’s no link between the two?
Finally, as to your prior observation about my calling people I disagree with unpleasant and stupid. You’re no doubt correct that it won’t win anybody over in a debate, but I’m not trying to do that here; I’m just describing the people in the anti EU movement, and those people daft enough to believe the lies and fantasies they’ve been peddling for years about the EU, and Britain’s place in the world.
Given the swaggering arrogance of people like Aaron Banks, who openly boasts of having got the better of regulators in breaking electoral law, and the racist rabble rousing of people like Farage, I’m entitled to call them unpleasant.
And given the jaw dropping stupidity of voters who were taken in by the Leave lie about an extra £350 million per week for the NHS if we leave the EU, I’m entitled to call them stupid.
Plus of course, pro EU people like myself are constantly subjected to a barrage of insults and abuse from Leavers (e.g traitor, remainiac, quisling, liberal left elitist and other such drivel) They can’t very well complain if they get some of their own medicine back in return.
Did anyone listen to those interviewed on the World at One Today who are fed up we are not Hard out yet? It is very scary that debate is conducted at that level
I am told by some young people that this rocks their faith in democracy
Didn’t hear it Richard, but doesn’t it rather prove my point about the stupidity of some of the Leavers? Their irrational hatred of the EU has blinded them to the facts it would seem. Or perhaps, they know the disasters it could cause, but still don’t care about the consequences, either for themselves, or others. In short, Brexit has become a death cult.
Well, if they want to commit suicide, that’s their business, but dragging the rest of us down with them is pure selfishness, and malice. You see what I mean about their unpleasantness?
And these people have a vote. No wonder some people are losing faith in democracy.
Hard Out Brexit is a plaything for the very rich, but also favoured by the lesser funded for whom critical detail is like garlic to a vampire. Scrap 759 trade agreements? Whatever.
Rich political advocates might like to consider this proposal:-
On the basis that hard Brexit will be a runaway success so everyone should live under its cloudless sky, political advocates will commit all their wealth to a temporary public trust holding, subject to review one year later. During that year, they will be prohibited from involvement in shorting GBP forex or any other volatile market speculation, and banned from involvement in any purchase of assets or companies at fire sale liquidation prices.
If everything goes swimmingly and Britain is on the crest of a sunny uplands wave, their money will be returned with interest. But if Britain drowns in debt, their money and assets will be confiscated to provide welfare for the countless victims of their irresponsibility.
SATS paper question: How many rich, hard Brexit fans are there now?
🙂
Not really sick of – Scotland is smaller and easier to run. The South of England is just greatly over populated – just too any people.
Scotland is not – but don’t tell anyone that.
Responding to Michael. I am sorry but you clearly have a rather odd idea of sizes of coubtriescand ease of governance. Scotland is geographically bigger than England and it includes mountains, hundreds of islands including stage Orkney and Shetland Islands, massive landed estates owned by offshore trusts and areas in the cities of real deprivation. The Highland Council area alone is larger than Wales, Belgium, or the state of Virginia. Because funding and Parliamentary representation is distributed by population with little regard to geographical realities, and because we have been deprived of proper investment for 300 years, we find ourselves paying far more into the UK exchequer than we get back. Scotch Whisky taxes are actually accounted for under London and we enjoy paying towards HS2, Cross-rail, etc while the main railway lines to Aberdeen and Inverness are Victorian single track and belong in a museum. Parts of the main trunk road here are single track with passing spaces and potholed – except where they have been improved with EU funding.
The population of Caithness, the Western Isles and some other areas is dropping year on year as emigration continues and it becomes more and more difficult to maintain basic services to an increasingly elderly and far from wealthy population. We welcome immigrants!
The island of Britain is only overcrowded in the SE corner. The density where I live is 2-3 people per sq.km . My nearest supermarket is 50 miles away, but I’m happy with that. It’s just costly and tricky to deliver services to areas like this.
So your ill-conceived comment was like a red rag to this bull!
Our money is largely spent in the London area and all that investment simply sucks in more and more resources
Spot on John