I have sketched out some of the reasons why I will be voting Remain on a mind map. To best read this click here.
There's also a PDF of a text version of this here.
Thanks for reading this post.
You can share this post on social media of your choice by clicking these icons:
You can subscribe to this blog's daily email here.
And if you would like to support this blog you can, here:
It’s sad that democracy is mentioned in passing, and then only to say the HoL is worse. The Commons can override the HoL, it can’t override the EU. That in itself, from someone who says democracy is under threat, is disappointing.
I have made the obvious point that the evidence is very strong that democracy is under much more threat internally than from the EU
I’d say the balance was pretty equal, Richard. Hence my abstain decision (with a message about the denial of my right register as an abstention affixed to the ballot paper).
In reality, parliament is sovereign within the UK.
As long as law passed does not conflict with EU law.
However, if such conflict arises, parliament can revoke the European Communities act 1972.
This would immediately revoke our membership of the community, but parliament is sovereign within the UK.
It all depends upon how “sovereign” you wish it to be, control of UK law by the EU courts is only by consent.
Why I am now considering voting Leave.
Reform of the corrupt political, economic and financial systems here in the UK as the top priority for our country, before any hope of a reformed EU at some time in the future.
But that is the last thing you will get by leaving, I think
But that will be a matter for the UK electorate to decide upon, every 5 years or sooner in the case of a vote of no-confidence in Parliament.
And after a weekend of deliberation with some people on various ends of the libertarian/authoritarian/left/right spectrum it has become glaringly obvious to me that what we are rapidly losing in this country is our ability to control our own destiny.
As a result we have slipped into the corporatist state mentality here in the UK, the one that also now dominates the EU, where we are continually led to believe there is no alternative.
And so I agree with some of the other commentators that our democracy must be our number one priority if we are to remain an independent nation state. The Eurozone has already seen the epic failure of a lack of democratic control over their own financial institutions.
We are in danger of going exactly the same way in my opinion and the best action at this stage is for a “cease and desist” notice to the EU if this is what the British public collectively decide.
Wolfgang Schauble’s comments over the weekend were the final straw for me of the failure of social democracy to control financial autocracy. I am voting Leave unless something profound happens in the attitude and constitution of EU over the next few weeks which is nigh on impossible.
And I accept Richard, it all could be a horrible economic mistake (for some) but there are some things that always must be fought for and democracy must be one of them.
My fear is we will lose it by leaving
But this is a judgement call…
I have to agree with Richard on this as someone who was going to vote leave and will now abstain with utter gut wrenching disgust at the faux choice available. The Left is too weak and we will get neo liberalism on steroids from the buffoons and mouth-farters that are representing the dumbed-down to the the centre of the earth Brexit camp.
Let me add this paper I read this morning into the mix for consideration of whether we will get more or less neo-liberalism if we remain in the EU.
http://www.academia.edu/812427/Neoliberalism_in_the_European_Union
In my view, neo-liberalism has now become so institutionalised in the political machinery of the EU, that while being a member we have no choice but to follow the neo-liberal mantra (as Blair and Brown know only too well).
The US and UK were at the forefront of achieving this under Reagan and Thatcher – but at least we were able to vote out right wing Tories, only to find that the Labour party were hamstrung by the EU and the equally neo-liberal thinking of the Blairites.
For example Neoliberal Constitutionalism is defined in the paper as “institutionalization of neoliberal policies such as the promotion of free trade, monetary restraint, budgetary austerity, privatization, and flexibilization of labour markets”.
Well that is exactly what we have with the EU, is it not?
” Conclusion. While Europeans may think that Europe is exceptional, thepolicies delivered by the European Union in no way depart from the neolib-eral mainstream.”
And the last sentence says it all for me:
“In contrast to the widespread perception of European distinctiveness, Europe shares with other regions of the world the same outcome where neoliberal restructuring has been put into effect: there has been a major redistribution of wealth from work-contingent income to ownership-contingent income”
I for one am not voting for more of the same, no more business as usual, or anything else where I do not have a personal vote as my only way to influence the removal of such policies that have become so ingrained into the heart of far too much of today’s politics and economics.
And after this 40+ year neo-liberal private financial state sponsored economic experiment, let’s not forget who now really rules the world.
Unless and until we collectively decide to oppose them which at some point we must do if we are to regain democratic economic and political control over our societies.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/its-a-small-world-at-the-top-which-corporations-control-the-world/5530584
The political system within the UK is made corrupt by the economic/financial system, whose tentacles reach into both houses, and probably higher.
Presumably you have forgotten the rather large quantity of money that has passed from the financial institutions (or rather from its customers) into various countries coffers as fines for transactions/actions that would have got ordinary citizens long prison sentences?
(isn’t it a shade over $6 billion in fines so far?)
And the PPI fraud….some £12-18 billion?
Not much prison time though…
Sorry, the corruption is complete….
You (leaveuk) are not removing the UK from corrupt EU institutions, you are giving it to corrupt UK institution (in many cases, those institutions are the same)
Never mind the largest power-play in history, control of the entire globe by corporations via TTIP…which the conservative party will sign-up to as soon as it can.
“You (leaveuk) are not removing the UK from corrupt EU institutions, you are giving it to corrupt UK institution (in many cases, those institutions are the same)”
JohnM, I agree with you that corruption is now rife everywhere as a result of the political and economic direction the world has been traveling these past 40+ years. Sadly history continually shows us that the bigger the institution, the bigger the corruption. That is the same for banks, countries, unions, associations and any other form of non-democratic, hierarchical organisation.
And so I personally believe (and i represent nor support any of the official leave campaigns) that corruption can be tackled at source much more effectively when the economic and political organisations that enable and undertake such corrupt activities are broken up into smaller, more transparent and more democratic entities.
Bigger is not better in my book!
Well that is not likely to happen is it after BREXIT the country will hardly be more regulated will it quite the opposite I would have thought
The problem with national reform of financial systems is that it no longer works. In a Global market banks can simply relocate to the country which offers the weakest regulation and lowest tax enforcement.
Note how the UK backed down on all banking reform after HSBC threatened to relocate its operations out of London. Martin Wheatley was sacked as head of the Financial Conduct Authority in 2015 and all plans for further UK regulation were dropped. This after HSBC was shown to have enabled UK tax evasion through its Swiss office, but no action was taken against HSBC while the whistle-blower who revealed these illegal activities was jailed in Switzerland for five years!
If you think it is possible for the UK government to “reform corrupt financial systems” without the backing of at least EU wide regulation you have failed to understand how Global markets now work. Our financial services are beyond the reach of national regulators, playing one country off against another, so that they can do as they please.
The EU is anything but perfect, but at least it gives hope for reform at some time in the future. Brexit can never deliver the “return of control” that is being claimed, so I’m afraid voters for Brexit are being conned.
“The problem with national reform of financial systems is that it no longer works. In a Global market banks can simply relocate to the country which offers the weakest regulation and lowest tax enforcement.”
And just the same argument is made of why the EU will not reform the financial system, because it is held to ransom by the same global private banking institutions and their puppet corporations.
So if you accept that state sponsored financial capitalism is the only economic model on which to organise a society, it makes no difference whether we are part of the EU or not.
But if you do believe there are alternatives, then they are far more likely to be developed within an independent democratic nation state, in my view.
See the article published in an earlier post for what you are suggesting I support:
http://www.academia.edu/812427/Neoliberalism_in_the_European_Union
“The problem with national reform of financial systems is that it no longer works.”
Eh? You just regulate the banks in your currency area.
Me too.
Thanks for all the time and thoughtful effort you’ve put into this rational approach to decision making. It should be printed and dropped by helicopter over the entire country!
All very sensible Richard. I still cannot understand how any on the left can consider voting to leave. I just find the likes of the TUSC, Dennis Skinner etc baffling. There is not a left-wing leave option on offer in this referendum no matter how much so may wish that there is. We are leaving under a nationalist rightwing flag. If you vote to leave that is what you are voting for and that is the message you are sending as you leave.
Exactly Rick, exactly. If the UK votes to leave, it will not, however much some on the left think so, be a victory for democracy, but a victory for the very worst of the right in the UK. This whole anti EU movement started on the nationalist right under Farage, a man with a National Front background, and is enthusiastically supported by all the far right UK groups. If you check the FB profiles of the most rabid anti EU lot, you’ll see what I mean.
Look at the racist, anti semitic nationalist groups that Ukip has allied itself with in the European Parliament.
The Leave campaign is simply blaming everything that’s wrong with Britain on immigrants, the oldest and most contemptible trick in the book, when in fact our problems in housing, the NHS, education and other public services are caused by the doctrine of austerity this we’ve had shoved down our throats since 2010.
Anyone, repeat anyone, on the left who helps the Leave campaign to win needs their head examined.
I didn’t think politics in the UK could get worse after the 2015 election, but I was wrong. We now face the very real prospect of a pack of nationalistic (often racist), free market fundamentalists and charlatans voting us out of the EU, helped by many ordinary non Conservative voters whose justified anger over austerity is being exploited by the far right.
And if the UK leaves the EU that will enormously encourage all the other nationalist groups in Europe. Is that what these left wingers want?
On EU democracy I think this article corrects many assertions and correctly points out that not every ‘democracy’ – if the UK indeeed is one – is made in the British image.
http://blog.spardagus.com/post/145550358900/of-dead-ducks-and-democracy
Many thanks Richard. I have shared it on Facebook. There are a few typos (which I’ve come to expect and love).
I’m passionate about remaining. The UK has been a pretty ugly place over the past few months. I once upset a Daily Mail promoter by upon been offered a free copy said “I would even use it for toilet paper.” I am very saddened that sort of views espoused by the Daily Mail seem so widespread and growing like a cancer. I would be ashamed to be English at the moment. (I’m Irish and never have contemplated taking UK citizenship despite living here for 35 years).
A year ago I said half jokingly that if Scotland votes to leave then I would start a movement to bring the Scottish border back down to Hadrian’s wall. Living in Northumberland I am north of Hadrian’s wall. Much to my surprise this proved a very popular idea. Indeed the main objection was from people who lived south of the wall feeling excluded!
Well said and nice to see some international arguments. I’m pleased Gordon Brown has entered the fray. Labour should be doing far more. A Brexit UK will be a very ugly place to live.
Thanks
I admit I like having my Irish passport….
Richard given your Irish passport you would have been in a very hypocritical position were you to advocate leave given you and your family have a backdoor to many of the EU benefits and a get out of jail free card to whatever problems becoming a non-EU citizen could cause. I’m guessing that Farage’s family have dual German – English nationality given his wife is German. Thus they also have backdoor to benefits that he may deny other young Britain’s study elsewhere in Europe at domestic rates, move and work freely within the EU etc. A hypocrisy I’m yet to hear anyone question him on.
Glad I didn’t fall into that trap then…
Oyy sunshine-what about us in Yorkshire? Move Hadrians Wall south I say !!!
South of the Wash, I say
I disagree with Richard that the EU is still some bastion of ‘workers right’ which sounds to me like gross liberal sentimentalism. The EU (with the Troika) has systematically reduced workers rights and supported ‘internal devaluation’. It is a slave to the pernicious madness of the IMF and World Bank. Throughout the whole of Europe there has been ideologically ‘forced’ emigration (Latvia/Portugal/Spain/Greece/Ireland) and a definition of unemployment as ‘voluntary.’ The IMF has even referred to the Greek unemployment issue as structural!
Sorry Richard, the worker’s rights argument is the quintessence of pure bollocks (to use obscure econometric terminology).
Odd that almost all trade unions seem to agree with me…
I’ll second that – it is odd, very odd.
Cameron has asked us to think of the future for the coming generations. I am doing just that and concluding that the EU is simply empire building, something that always ends badly. If we remain in the EU, we are members of a group of nations that, by its nature, excludes other countries. We should be independent and foster links with as many countries as possible to ensure our future security.
Thank you Richard – a helpful analysis that covers pretty much everything. Though I’m with MayP in believing that the EU democracy argument is heavily overstated.
For me it comes down to whose team do you you want to be on. When one looks at the Brexit camp, rather than listen to what they are saying, look at their track record – easy to do these days. Overwhelmingly they are from the Right or Far Right with Farage being the most obnoxious. Yes there are some interesting exceptions (Field, Skinner et al) but they are the exceptions. For the Brexit camp, the EU stands in the way of the extreme neo-liberal, fully deregulated world that they would like to establish in the UK. Their focus on immigration as the source of so many of the UKs problems is dishonest smokescreen to divert attention from the underlying causes which will still be there if the UK leaves the EU. Its a power grab, pure and simple
Letting this lot grab the reins of power which is what a Brexit vote will do, would be a disaster. Voting Brexit is not cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face but is more like cutting one’s throat… The EU can be reformed and there is enough evidence that other countries feel similarly to the UK about the reforms needed. We just need a government that is serious about getting stuck in to make that happen.
Robin while I accept that the most vocal Brexit campaigners are on the libertarian right, there are a great deal of libertarian left people who think that Brexit would be good for an entirely different purpose than those on the right.
Both libertarian lefts and rights agree on one thing and that is to “regain democratic control of our country” and cut the knot to the “corporatist non-democratic EU”.
But the libertarian left do not want to replace one corporatist state with another, which is almost certainly what the right will end up delivering if they were still in power post Brexit. However, as the UK public would still be able to vote a new government in power every 5 years at least, everything is reversible unlike staying in the EU where nothing is reversible by the UK public if we remain.
Immigration has been the main focus for the right wingers who quite correctly see this as the most likely area to get working class votes. Anyone on the left who denies the working class of the UK are not impacted by mass migration has no understanding of how labour markets work.
But what has been sadly lacking from the “mainstream left” i.e. the Labour Party has been any vision of what society will look like if we remain in the EU. I have not seen a glimmer of hope that it will be anything more than business as usual for the banks and corporations to continue to ride roughshod over working class and increasingly middle class labour.
And so, while those on the right see an opportunity to offer an even more free market agenda, I personally see an ideal left wing opportunity to split the Tories down the middle and regain power before the Brexit negotiations begin.
Or if Cameron somehow survives a vote of no confidence then the public will soon realise what a complete shambles the right wing Tories have made of their party, as they will be able to agree on nothing going forwards in my view.
So for me it eventually came down to a fairly simple flip of a coin – more of the same of the past 40+ years of neo-liberalism, or the CHANCE of real social CHANGE.
Thanks Richard for encouraging informed debate, as ever. I have already voted Remain, with a postal vote as I will be burying my head (or at least my toes)in the sand next week by the seaside. I followed my gut instinct and common sense but it is really useful to have some help explaining what is at stake and what is really going on. It takes someone “Political Party neutral” to put forward a believable argument these days which is rather sad.
Enjoy the sea!
I’m with you on this, but I’ll admit that I have a great deal of sympathy for the arguments made by Keith Fletcher. But ultimately sickoftaxdodgers’ position is pretty much mine. And I don’t want to go to my grave having to live with the fact that I voted with Gove, Johnson, Farage, and the rest of the repulsive Brexit group.
That said, I’ve seen the latest opinion poll report in The Guardian showing Brexit with a six point lead and I have to say I’m not surprised. Whoever I talk to now the response is the same: that they are sick of hearing from the “great and good” that the sky will fall in if we leave, and so, like a rebellious child they are going to stick two fingers up to that bunch and vote leave anyway.
I fear you are right
I fear you are also right. It will be a disaster economically. The EU will have no incentive to give the UK favorable terms; It will be too afraid of breaking up.
There is a very high probability that Scotland will leave.
The Tory stranglehold on the UK is likely to get much stronger and the thought of Borris IDS and Gove running the country is too nightmarish to contemplate. Things are already looking Orwellian enough.
The only upside (for me as an Irish Republican) is that it will hasten the formation of a United Ireland; but the process may lead to a lot of instability and a return of a lot of violence to NI.
The South East of England may benefit; the Tories give the impression that it is all they care about anyway.
Ivan – I know one thing for certain, whichever way the British public vote the political left had better have a very good plan A and an even better plan B, because if they are hoping and praying that the likes of Brown and Blair can lead the public to choose Remain then only God can help them!
Thanks for the analysis, Richard and I’ll say right at the start that I believe your conclusion is spot on, ie that “the evidence is very strong that democracy is under much more threat internally than from the EU”, part of the evidence being that the EU seems to be standing against TTIP where our government and the Brexiteers (why aren’t they called “Privateers”) seem to want to roll over. That tells me that the EU recognizes at least some of the threats of TTIP at a time when the right in this country denies those threats and wants to implement TTIP as soon as they can, which would be a disaster for the vast majority.
Keith, with the greatest respect, I believe it’s naive to believe that the UK electorate has the will to stand up against neo-liberalism in this country; too many don’t vote at all, too many don’t have the time or the inclination to engage with politics at anything more than a relatively superficial level, and most, it seems, fall for the highly successful but simplistic propaganda they’re fed by the MSM, with the shameful result that the most vulnerable take the worst of the pain initiated by the either the economic ignorance or, much worse, the dishonesty, of the right.
For me, the greatest danger of Brexit is that the political lunatics who will gain by it are those who seek, I believe, to make the UK so much worse. If we can’t vote to remove them for another four years, the Holy Grail of democracy could be destroyed by the damage they would inflict on the vast majority. For example, can we be sure that this forum will still be able to exist, that dissent of any kind will not have been made illegal?
It’s never easy to be confronted by a choice between the lesser of two evils but Sickoftaxdodgers summed it up very well when he said “I didn’t think politics in the UK could get worse after the 2015 election, but I was wrong. We now face the very real prospect of a pack of nationalistic (often racist), free market fundamentalists and charlatans voting us out of the EU, helped by many ordinary non Conservative voters whose justified anger over austerity is being exploited by the far right. And if the UK leaves the EU that will enormously encourage all the other nationalist groups in Europe.”
The least bad option in the face of a question we should not have been asked and a truly dire campaign is to vote to REMAIN, a vote I will cast in the hope that the Tories fall apart as a result of the inevitable bickering that will surely follow whatever the result and that space for a better option and future will open up.
‘helped by many ordinary non Conservative voters whose justified anger over austerity is being exploited by the far right. ‘
This is absolutely right. The mendacious charlatans of guff (Gove/Johnson) are riding on a wave of that anger and redirecting it their way -in short it is Fascism when public anger and dissatisfaction is re-routed to achieve corporate hegemony.
The terrible shame, is that after politically induced dumbing-down many in the public will not notice that the piss is being taken.
Nick James – read the paper below and then decide whether the British public are voting for or against neo-liberalism if they choose Brexit.
http://www.academia.edu/812427/Neoliberalism_in_the_European_Union
As for democracy in the EU or the UK it is virtually non-existent in both. I am no UKIP supporter, in fact I don’t support any political party at the moment as none of them have a single cohesive set of policies that make any sense to me at all. I have only ever used my vote in protest to try to ensure the Conservatives don’t win, as that for me is always the worst of a bad set of options.
But think how 12.7% of the UK voting public felt when they voted UKIP and got 1 MP. There is a level of anger and frustration in our society that is not being listened to because the system tries to shut it out. And that is dangerous and it needs to change for the benefit of society as a whole.
In my view, we have enough to fix in our own political and economic system before we even try to consider how to resolve the democratic deficit and problems in the EU.
As for whatever the vote eventually turns out to be, in my opinion it will be too easy to trot out the same old excuses about “it’s the public” or “it’s the press” or “it’s the education system” or whatever. In my view, we have to take a collective responsibility and say it is the political and economic system as a whole that is at fault.
Somehow, that needs fixing and in my view remaining in the EU is not a vote for change, it is a vote for more of the same. I’ve sat on the fence throughout the campaigns but unless something radical changes this is my direction of travel at the moment.
Robert P Bruce suggests that contributors have failed to understand how global markets now work. I think we all do know how they now work but not all of us are defeatist enough to believe we have to accept that is the only way.
Just read the results of the latest Guardian / ICM poll which makes for depressing reading. It beggars belief that so many English clearly fail to make any rational analysis of the outcome of a Brexit vote. I have many otherwise intelligent friends who will vote leave but when questioned on the realities fail to come up with either a correct answer or else just respond emotionally with phrases like ‘we must protect our sovereignty’, ‘I voted for a common market not a European Union’, ‘it’s time to call a halt to direct rule from faceless bureaucrats in Brussels’, ‘all these immigrants will wreck our country’, ‘you hardly hear English spoken on the streets these days’ … well, you know the diatribes. It’s as though the nation has been mentally paralysed by some bizarre virus that results in the suspension of normal cognitive powers.
Those of my acquaintances who will vote to Remain don’t go into an apoplectic fit when discussing the topic. They simply weigh up the arguments and make their decision. But the others who will vote Brexit (and who seem likely to win) become seriously agitated, with rising blood-pressure and descend into a sort of soccer-fan ‘yah-boo’ dialectic that seems in conflict with their usual serene, middle-class view of the world.
Of course these are simply personal musings based on an unscientific sample, but it seriously worries me as to what will happen to the country if/when they win. Other posters have raised the probablitity of a swing further to the right which seems likely in the short-term. However, the ICM poll also revealed that the Tories have dropped a couple of points, Labour gained one, UKIP also dropped a point (intersting) and modest gains for the Greens & LibDems. It suggests to me therefore that during the period of chaos following the vote, there may be a window of opportunity for the progressive left to launch a sustained programme of reform, assuming they actually have one.
In any event, the Tories will be busy sorting themselves out, deciding who’ll be for the chop and who will be their future leader. If we didn’t have this fixed term rule then it would be an opportunity for a GE. I hope Corbyn and Co. have got a strategic plan and that they’re in fighting mode, especially if the decision is to leave. No time for wishy-washy rhetoric.
Liked very much the chart.
Grooming – here’s me thinking it could only happen to individual children – well one lives & learns – it can, apparently, happen to a whole country.
By all means vote leave – but do remember – you have been groomed.
I’ll leave the last word to one of the groomers in chief (he is being quoted in the Guardian by the orignal founder of UKIP – Sked).
“He wanted ex-National Front candidates to run and I (Sked) said, ‘I’m not sure about that,’ and he (Farage) said, ‘There’s no need to worry about the nigger vote. The nig-nogs will never vote for us.” By all means vote with Farage, a liar, hypocrite, fantasist and racist.
Mike (and others), you are, sickeningly, correct. I am appalled, but not surprised to see that the anti EU crowd are ahead in the opinion polls. And as others have observed, and as I observed in my office a couple of days ago, it is astonishing that some otherwise seemingly intelligent people (maybe I’m a bad judge of character) have been taken in by the lies and nonsense peddled by the anti EU lot.
Years of lies pushed by the MSM, people’s anger at austerity, and the complacency of the pro EU establishment all underlie this. So now we are getting to the point when a liar, hypocrite, fantasist and racist, as Mike so accurately describe Farage, is going to get what he’s spent the last 25 years campaigning for. Which is why people like Keith and Simon, with all due respect should take a deep breath and vote Remain. It really, really is,the lesser of two evils.
“Which is why people like Keith and Simon, with all due respect should take a deep breath and vote Remain. It really, really is,the lesser of two evils.”
Why on earth should I vote for something I don’t believe is democratic or sustainable or the lesser evil?
You, Simon, Richard and everyone else can do whatever they like – but autocracy is not something I want to entertain thank you.
I am not voting in support of all UKIP policies in this referendum, most of which I abhor. But nobody should deny facts or evidence or a logical well articulated argument on a subject that matters to all of us.
The problem is there is as much of a deficit of believable, honestly given and reliable information from both sides of the campaigns, which is why most people will fall back on gut feel and tribal instincts. Like it or not, that is politics and that is democracy, despite some people’s best attempts to suppress it.
Richard and others have given their opinions, myself and others have given different ones. There is no need for insults or denigration in this debate.
Can I appeal for calm? And respect
I value your comments – all those regulars who have really contributed to debate here of late
Let’s keep it going
As a Remain voter I empathise with the likes of Keith & Co (but I do not understand the abstainers here at all).
The fact that we have been given this vote is absurd in the extreme; we have been roped into the in-fighting of one of the most undemocratic political parties in the history of British Government: The Tory Party. And whilst we all get involved they will get up to further mischief behind our backs as our attention is on Europe.
This a party that has done more to make people’s lives harder than any in my 50 years on the planet. It has played dangerous games with voter sentiment and prejudice to win since 2010 that threatens the very fabric of society. It stirs fires that it could soon loose control of.
The EU is not perfect. But we have a Tory party that has been passing laws in the middle of the night. A Boris/Gove Tory Party could well get a UK only TTIP instituted and agreed here in the same way. Why not? Everything they do stinks of American corporate influenced political behaviour anyway. Look at fracking for example – started in a hurry – an American corporate style hurry.
If you want to see the biggest threat to sovereignty – do not look East; rather look West – to America.
Those who speak of neo-liberalism over-influencing the EU and somehow entrenched need to consider that since 2008 the wisdom of markets has been called into question. So, yes – the EU represents a block of NL thinking in Europe. But in each country there is a backlash and maybe a bulwark against it is appearing too. If we walk away from that opportunity – a European wide rejection of neo-liberalism – we could be weaker for it in the long run.
TTIP was rumbled because of pan European co-operation. Would we be able to rumble it again if on our own when one considers the recent shadowy workings of the UK’s rather imperfect democracy?
My main concern is if we left NOW. Here we are still in a recession since 2008, caused by American stupidity – not EU stupidity – and we are about to break away from an economically beneficial treaty that could trigger even less co-operation as each state struggles to cope with the post 2008 economic influenza.
I do not agree that the Left is ineffective. Corbyn has stated that he would want to remain and sort the EU out from within and I’m with him on that 100% of the way. I do hope that the British public give him the chance. The time to leave is when the economies are strong – not just because the Tory party used it as bribe to get your vote in 2015. If we are to go, go out on top – but not now. Europe is dominated by fear and uncertainty (as is much of the world) post 2008. To me, a vote to leave is just a vote for disaster capitalism.
Finally, to me, this issue is not about right or wrong. It is about what we as individuals feel comfortable with in terms of consequences (as Richard has un picked for himself above). All I can say is ‘choose well’.
PSR – I think it can quite rightly be argued that “we have been given this vote” because of the pressure of democracy from below which is causing the seismic rifts in the non-democratic two party system the UK currently suffers from.
As for TTIP or any other laws in future, they will at least be subject to whatever form of UK democracy exists at the time, and as and when a government changes they may be repealed or modified. That is the democratic way.
Which cannot be said for staying in the EU, where dictates from above are mostly non-negotiable and non-reversible (other than leaving the EU). That is the autocratic way.
I have chosen my preferred direction of travel.
Sorry Richard, I am unconvinced.
Cameron and Osborne and the Tory establishment they represent are my enemy.
They have decided to close my workplace in the next couple of years.
If things Remain the same I am out of a job.
So I am inclined to vote to throw a spanner in the works.
I don’t want a big Brexit victory that give Boris a mandate.
I’m voting for as close to a draw as possible that keeps the Tories fighting.
So you fit my hypothesis this morning, perfecly
And so politics is tribal. It’s what is supposed to stop us going to war with each other.
When you take the tribal out of politics and suppress those who are angry with the status quo, you get an unexpected and harsh reaction.
I agree with you Richard, we are seeing some of that, perhaps lots of that in this EU referendum.
But that is not the fault of those at or near the bottom (or even the middle) of the tribes in my view. It is failure of politics and economics to reflect all of society fairly.
Cameron and Osborne are, I agree, dreadful, and their policies of austerity have created the anger now being directed against immigration by the Leave campaign.
But isn’t that the point? By voting Brexit you are actively supporting an even worse pack of right wingers.
The sight of people like IDS, Gove and Farage posing as the champiosn of the working class, and, if FB is anything to go by, succeeding on a large scale, is appalling.
If you vote with these shysters you’ll be throwing a spanner in the works alright, but only to the advantage of nationalists, racists and free market fanatics across all of the EU. If Leave wins, do you think Farage, with his ego and loathing of the EU, will quietly bow out? No, he’ll be across the channel in France encouraging his fellow travellers in France, Hungary, Poland etc.
Be very careful what you wish for.
Because you all present such convincing arguments, though I was voting to remain, I am now wavering. It should not have come to this, the government should govern, as we elected them to do. So I will think and think. As a family we are divided, as is the country,
As someone commented, the lesser of two evils, how dreadful is that. That an enormous gravy train has been created is apparent, not least the farm subsidies to the rich and privileged. TTIP, yes that is a remain vote if it puts the brakes on that, I think I have just convinced myself to stay in for today at least. Always had conviction but this beats me. To dither is not good is it. Pull yourself together woman.
Bless you Sylvia – you represent the efforts of the whole nation!!
rick says he is baffled by left wingers who support Leave, because there is not a left wing option on offer at present. I find even more baffling the left wingers who support Remain because Europe protects workers’ rights. They appear to have given up all hope of returning to power in four years time.
I beg to differ
Errrr……….pardon David?
Corbyn has stated on TV that he is in favour of staying in, rejecting TTIP as it is now and that we should use our position to push for reform within the EU.
That’s the closest I’ve come to yet to finding a Left narrative and it will do for me for now.
Corbyn, Gove, Johnson, Cameron …. none of them are relevant to this debate. This is about how the UK is run decades into the future.
There isn’t a left or right wing option. It’s Leave or Remain.
The next election is in 2020, and if the Brexit Tories are as bad as many fear, then they will go down to a crushing defeat.
A reminder for younger listeners: the Tories have achieved 1 majority in the last 5 elections. Should they make it 2 from 6, then that will be the will of the electorate. That’s democracy. However, there is no reason to suppose that their opponents can’t win a few short years from now, opponents who would be free to implement non-neoliberal policies.
I suspect Corbyn is supporting Remain with gritted teeth and clenched buttocks – there SHOULD have been a proper Left presentation of Brexit which could have made a case for Green QE/UBI and the merits of a sovereign currency for the public purpose. But instead we’ve had an armpit-farting contest extraordinaire.
Who runs Europe? The European Round Table of Industrialists “advocates policies at both national and European level”. It is a forum of around 50 Chief Executives and Chairmen of major multinational companies. Makes you shudder, doesn’t it?
PSR says “Errrr…….pardon David?
Corbyn has stated we should use our position to push for reform within the EU ????
If that didn’t work for Cameron with the referendum looming, it will definitely not work if we choose to remain.
I am still finding this difficult. I do not want the Tories on steroids. But I am appalled at the fact that the EU Commission appear to have signed CETA and want to by pass national governments by not seeking their ratification. This came from a German article but can be translated:
http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2016/06/10/eu-will-ceta-ohne-zustimmung-der-nationalen-parlamente/
I think the way in which austerity has been forced upon Greece, and the deflation causing between 25% and 50% unemployment in Greece and Spain does not give me the impression that it is going to become benignly Keynesian any time soon.
In the past people have suffered to obtain democracy, so I am tempted to let the Conservatives destroy themselves for decades by getting worse. We can get rid of them. For many people going to foodbanks, suffering zero hours contracts, it could not get much worse. But if we elected a Labour Government with Corbyn, outside the EU he would be less restricted economically, could subsidise steel and nationalise the railways, and re nationalise the NHS services.
I recently read an EU document that describes the way in which the EU restricts the subsidy to the Steel industry.http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-16-118_en.htm
John Hilary has also mentioned that Cecilia Malstrom is trying to undermine democracy by by passing national governments with regard to CETA in this artcile in the independent (near the end).http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/corbyn-has-rejected-ttip-even-as-he-campaigns-to-remain-and-the-eu-needs-to-listen-a7063176.html
That could be a way forward but the next 4 years won’t be nice and Labour will have to go through a very visible rebirthing process which will also not be nice.
I agree with you Sandra, it would be the best time to be out of the EU with a labour leader finally committed to real social reform much of which would be impossible to deliver under the free market mantra of the EU.
I see one of your risks from Brexit is “major labour shortages in the UK”. Isn’t this what a lot of working class “out” voters are voting for?
But will they want those jobs?
A labour shortage for low paid jobs will (in the absence of other things changing) almost certainly push the price of labour for those low paid jobs up (if my simple understanding of non-interventionist crapitalist economics is still correct).
The previous state “intervention” was to allow an influx of low skilled labour into this country to “meet the demand” and fill the “jobs that British people didn’t want to do”. That was an intentional state decision, which has almost without doubt had a downward pressure on low skilled wages and even many skilled wages too.
So if the new state “intervention” is to reduce the amount of low skilled labour into the UK, the price of those currently “undesirable” jobs may rise and reach a level where those “scrounging” people decide to come off benefits and their occassional cash in hand jobs to undertake the required work that society needs undertaking.
Now many crapitalists won’t like that I agree, because unless they can increase their prices they will have to reduce their own pay/profits. So no doubt they will try all the other well know crapitalist tricks to keep wages low, push up prices and maintain their pay/profits because they really do not like the “laws” of competition and free markets that much anyway!
That’s interesting..I would suggest that the reason they may not want ‘those jobs’ is because housing costs after a 40 year bubbling make getting up at 5 in the morning and working in a field picking fruit whilst knowing that you still need housing benefit and possibly a food bank rather unappealing not to mention lining the pockets of a buy-to-let ‘scrounger’.
If only politicians would voice this reality and offer people real explanations rather than the guff -then we might have a reasonable national debate and discuss real alternatives. Instead we have ‘The Clangers’! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J84OURCL5OU
Keith – and also to fellow bloggers minded for Brexit. I guess I’m wondering both about the ‘ends’ and the ‘means’ that you have in mind?
I have read the paper that you posted, Keith – a Masters in International Development in the not too distant past helped me both in understanding the paper (pretty dense and jargon rich!) and the school of thinking of the author, along with some background research. When the term ‘neo-liberal’ is used to describe everything from likes of the Bilderberg group and US free marketeers, via the current UK government through to high-welfare states such as Scandinavia one has to wonder… Trump of course thinks that places like Sweden are socialist hells, so if they are being critiqued from both sides they might be somewhere near the right track.
The desired ‘end’ for authors such as Hoffman (and quite a few others in development academia) is a state in which the private sector has a marginal role or possibly no role at all. The abolition of capitalism altogether. To risk using labels, a Democratic Socialist or wholly Marxist state along the lines of say East Germany,Poland, Czeckoslovakia or Hungary as they were in the not-too distant past. Is this the end that you have in mind – or if not, what is the anticipated end? Its a question that is rightly asked of the Brexit camp at a national level, so far with pretty vague and unsubstantiated answers. (Though when you look at their leadership, the answer tends to be more National Socialist than Democratic Socialist)
And then to the ‘means’ – if I’ve understood the more radical argument here, it is that Brexit will lead to an extremely right wing government, which would be way more neoliberal than anything else in Europe. And I don’t mean the Swedish version of neoliberal… There does not seem to be much dispute about this as the most likely follow-on to a Brexit vote. The argument then runs that as a result of the economic and social chaos that will result from Il Duce Johnson’s rule, after a number of years there will be some kind of revolt, democratic or otherwise which will usher in the kind of non-capitalist state which I’ve described above.
Have I got that about right? If not, by all means correct me – Im trying to understand both the desired end and the assumed means to get there.
“Keith — and also to fellow bloggers minded for Brexit. I guess I’m wondering both about the ‘ends’ and the ‘means’ that you have in mind?”
Robin – first of all let me answer that by saying all my life I have only ever wanted to understand things as they are and seek the truth, which is so often shrouded in mystery and dogma. So my “ends” and “means” on this blog are of an entirely intellectual/questioning nature. I am neither overtly political nor active in any sense of the word as my physical health prevents me from doing much more than reading, watching and thinking these days.
I enjoy alternative thinking, and critical thinking, because it allows me and hopefully others to explore the options that are always available to us in our everyday choices and in society as a whole.
And so the paper you refer to I found interesting for a number of reasons, note the date it was written for starters, well before the financial crisis and the vast majority of commentators questioning the lemming like behaviour of politicians and economists. As for the authors credentials, he is a European Phd level academic teaching in a US university, and I will give him as much time of day as any other academic to see what they have to say.
The “means” you describe of a far right, neo-liberal post Brexit government are nothing to do with me, they seem to be being presented by the Project Fear team of what will happen if we dare to vote Leave.
I still believe that there are sufficient numbers of people in this country looking for a new direction in politics and economics, who may well choose to use this EU referendum to the political class that the current direction is not the one they want. Which for me is a good thing as my own personal belief is that the first thing we need to do in this country is to establish a real economic and political democracy so that our society is allowed to follow its natural course of development based on its collective needs, instead of this state sponsored private financial capitalist dominated world that is driving the vast majority of people in a direction of travel that is not meeting their needs but suits the wants of the owners of capital.
Make of that what you will, but real democracy is what I stand for – it is up to you to decide what I mean by real democracy.