Why is the government wanting you to focus on the yellow spot and not the red circle?
You decide which is more important.
And then ask them why they're trying to mislead everyone, I suggest.
Hat tip: Dr Éoin Clarke
Thanks for reading this post.
You can share this post on social media of your choice by clicking these icons:
You can subscribe to this blog's daily email here.
And if you would like to support this blog you can, here:
Whilst comparisons between the blue circle and the yellow one might be valid (and even here, the proper comparison is benefit fraud and tax fraud), I think a better comparison to the the relevance of the red circle would be the search for Bigfoot.
@ Geoff – a singularly inapt comparison, unless you accept the existence of Bigfoot, and only dispute what size shoes he should wear, which seems to be your argument.
Perhaps only HMRC, and their political masters, accept the £30 billion estimate, with many commentators accepting, implicitly or explicitly, that the Tax Justice estimate is likely to be a better representation of the facts.
Geoff. I feel like the stooge that you’re waiting for but have to ask “What on earth are you talking about?”
I had no clue either
OK – I’ll fall for it.
It’s because the red circle is as big a myth as bigfoot (in Geoff’s opinion)
Hope taht helps.
Except the myth is HMRC’s view
“Except the myth is HMRC’s view ”
Except the “myth” (i.e. the red circle) is not HMRC’s view. It is Tax Justice’s and PCS’s view. (Nice way of making it look like they are two separate organisations doing independent research, by the way).
HMRC’s view is set out in the blue circle.
Thank you for that statement of the obvious
But the myth is HMRC’s view, which can only be wrong
I’m struggling to understand why the estimate of a PCS associate should hold greater water than the estimate of the organisation which works under both Labour and Tory Governments and whose sole role is to collect tax for the Exchequer?
Struggle if you wish
But just consider the fact that HMRC basically only consider errors in the tax returns they receive and fail to collect tax returns from 1 million companies
Do you think that’s likely to give the right figure?
I don’t see why HMRC would be misleading. Surely if there is a tax avoidance issue then it is in their interests to highlight it to get their political masters to change the law?
From a brief perusal it seems the £120 billion figure has come under attack from HMRC, Institute of Fiscal Studies and the OUCBT?
The taxpayer’s alliance seem to suggest that double taxation is ignored. I ignored that as they are not impartial and in any case I assume that can’t possibly have been overlooked.
And you ignore the fact that HMRC’s management is far from impartial, wanting to show themselves in a good light?
Whilst OUCBT and IFS have a pro tax haven anti corporation tax line?
And you quote the TPA?
Oh dear…that is credibility shot forever
I clearly stated that I ignored the TPA as they are not impartial. Out of interest – was double taxation ignored in your calculations? I assume they made a mistake or put some negative spin on your work but would be interested to see your comments.
Please go and read my work and see how it included double taxation
I can’t see how it did
I’d actually focus on the turquoise circle, simply because it’s a like-for-like comparison and because it shows up all of the “scroungers” talk for the outright lie that it is.
The diagram would be better if the area of the circle represented the amount. It is quite obvious that the area of the 30 billion circle is a lot more than twice the area of the 16 billion circle.
richard , while I understand the point this Mr Clark is trying to make, it seems obvious that the scaling is wrong here . i think your own maths skills from being an economist can clearly see that more than 100 of the yellow circle would fit inside the red circle . it is an important point to make about the relative difference to people , but i think such a diagram should be accurate otherwise it makes such claims look weak rather than from experts such as you . can you redraw correctly for him ?
I think you are wholly missing the point
richard , that seems strange – i said i see the point mr clarke was making , i just said that wrong maths hurts the cause . is that wrong ? should we be untruthful when trying to put our case ? it is clear the scales here are wrong – simple maths should not be used against us when making the point .
Simple maths is not against making the point
Arguing about the maths is clearly intended to distract from the point
@Taxmanandrobbing
Do you also struggle as many of us do to understand how certain coffee shop chains can manage to trade for a decade without ever declaring a profit?
And that HMRC refused to consider this tax avoidance?
As they did Google?
And Amazon?
And Apple?
And there’s nothing odd in that?
Or the fact that avoidance is only schemes under DOTAS?
Shall we get real?
“And that HMRC refused to consider this tax avoidance?”
It is not HMRC’s job to determine whether such and such arrangements are “tax avoidance” as defined by one Richard Murphy. It is their job to ensure that companies are complying with UK tax legislation.
If they considered these arrangements to be against UK law then presumably they would have litigated. Fortunately, we still (just about) have rule of law in this country, and not rule by the misinformed commentariat.
It is my absolute right to seek to change perceptions on this issue
You appear to ignore that fact
You ask the question about who is being misled. In that light, it’s quite appropriate for people to point out that the chart itself is fundamentally flawed in it’s construction.
The idea behind such ‘infographics’ is to represent relative numbers in a simple form. They can be a powerful tool, but those who would use them should be resolute about their integrity. You would not be so relaxed if the same mistake was made on a chart supporting something you’re not in agreement with. You should hold your ‘friends’ to the same standards you would hold your enemies – even if they don’t return the courtesy.
The point it is making is absolutely valid.. but why counter a lie with another lie, when the truth is plenty good enough?
The chart clearly indicates relative significance in my view
It’s not misleading to anyone but a pedant
The chart clearly implies that the relative size of the circles is relative to the relative size of the numbers. In actuality, the sizes are wrong.
So it’s NOT relative. That’s the point.
You say ‘pedantry’ I say ‘integrity’, tomayto, tomarto, potayto, potarto, etc etc.
I heard you
I don’t agree
So let’s differ
My point is it makes not a ha’porth of difference to the point
Discussing it suggests you want to miss the point
And that matters
wow ! really wow ! facts are not important in this debate ? i am disappointed .
It is you who is ignoring facts
When you are reduced to complaining against the size of a circle on a diagram, you really are struggling! 🙂
Focussing on anything on anything but the yellow circle is not in keeping with this Orwellian Government’s agenda.
We don’t have to look too far back in history to see where this all leads.
The levels of corruption in the Government are reaching new highs as they try and conceal the truth with layer upon layer of disinformation and downright lies. The paedophile scandal and Westminster’s involvement in it is struggling to break through to mainstream media.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/22/media-gagged-westminster-child-abuse-ring
It is becoming increasing more difficult to know who we can trust.
I believe the Revenue’s estimate of the tax gap is a deceitful fabrication and it should be called out as such.
Richard, I hope you are making a speedy recovery.
Thanks for best wishes
Overdid it yesterday – and discovered there are still limits on what I can do
Slow start today….
Get well soon Richard.
It’s a go slow day today – tried too much yesterday
I wish my slow starts were as slow as yours, Richard!
Great to see you, or read you, coming back up.
Hope the rest of the pain disappears very soon.
I thought I’d been very slow this morning – only blogged by 8
Pain has gone – the ops been a success
It’s the after effects of the anaesthetic that’s a pain – I need far too much sleep. You know: 8 hours a night stuff….
It’s a good point, and as long as the usual Left Wing propaganda is not thrown in with it, i.e bash the Tories- it’s nobody else’s fault, it should be used as a campaign that should make some impact amongst all kinds of opinion.
Why is is “Left Wing” to call out the government of the day for making what looks like, on any rational basis, a very poor decision to focus on the smallest problem when, even on their own estimate of the tax gap, there’s a much larger elephant in the room?
Speaking as one who didn’t think to measure the circles and compare surface area I think the diagram makes the point well enough (and I have a reputation as a pedant to uphold).
I think this Government should simply give up the pretence of trying recoup taxes owed by their wealthy and powerful cronies. George Monbiot’s article in the Guardian yesterday(?) about upcoming changes to the corporation tax paid on foreign profits, highlighted just how mendacious and unpatriotic this Government is.
Patriotism depends upon which country you support. Calling this government unpatriotic assumes they support the UK, when in reality all main parties support the idea of ¨world government¨.
Mendacious fits all parties, and all politicians. Getting caught telling a lie is the sin, the lie is not.
A look at the three main UK political parties, and their upper echelons, very quickly informs you that they are all ¨bought¨ people. They get paid by us, but their allegiance is with Big Money.
I see your site is now attracting a fair share of trolls now Richard?
Excellent posts today Richard, good to see you on the mend, and, in the nicest way possible, I’m glad the surgeons haven’t removed all your gall
They’ve still got some of my energy
But gall, definitely not
over the last few years I have watched (and personally experienced) the crescendo of propaganda vilifying the hapless benefit claimant. We now it is designed to do:
1) Deflect attention away from the financial sectors housing bubbles.
2) Satisfy the scapegoat psychology to channel the (justified) anger of those working long hours and largely feeling they are on a treadmill that needs to be spun ever faster.
3) Supports the myth that there is a shortage of money when there need not be.
4) Support the neo-liberal myth of the efficiency of markets.
5) Keep the myth alive that ‘if you just work that bit harder you’ll make it’ despite the cards being stacked against you.
Good to see you gradually getting up to speed, Richard – pace yourself, frustrating as it might be.
It is frustrating
I can’t do full days yet
And I actually like doing this job