What is coming your way....
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This is not 1947.The entitlement society,’my human rights’,and the absence of the requirement to look after ‘self’,makes the provision of free health services by a monopoly supplier frankly absurd.The state now accounts for half,give or take,of GDP.The NHS is a unique model,insofar as no other western democracy has imitated it. Go to France or Switzerland where people just laugh at the NHS.Look at the enormous waste on failed IT systems(£13 billion).Look at the huge power of the BMA and the public sector unions that prevent a productive output.How many multinationals ,let alone sovereign companies, employ 1.3 million people,efficiently?Indian railways?OK, iIhad no compunction in having other taxpayers pay for the op. on my varicose veins.Get real.
I am real
The private sector will provide a vastly worse, much more expensive and dramatically less efficient health model
I only presume you want people to die to fuel your profits
But surely the “failed” IT projects that £13 billion was wasted on were precisely those schemes implemented, with political intent, as an attempt to privatise the NHS through “parthership” with the private sector. So how does that prove the public sector model s bad – quite the reverse actually. And health services arent “free” – the NHS may be free at the point of delivery but is paid for through mine and every other tax payers’ taxes – taxes that I dont want syphoned off to fund large profits of those who probably pay no tax at all – if they did it would go a long way to help “balance the budget”?
And it was not the NHS that failed on these projects – it was the private sector that failed to deliver on its promises
William – your post is nonsense, I would advise that you read the actual bill and not the “Liberating the NHS” fluffy white paper that tells people things they want to hear.
Can we please get this straight: France and Switzerland spend far more on their health systems than we do here.
You are right – 2% of GDP more in the case of France for example
This is disgusting. None of the mainstream political parties are suggesting the system that is portrayed in the video. There is no way you can believe that isn’t the case, that the Government are proposing the sort of thing seen in the video, because even a cursory reading of the proposals shows that it isnt true.
Therefore peddling inaccurate propaganda such as this is vastly irresponsible. It sends out entirely the wrong message, simply tries to scare people into opposing something that isn’t happening, and just ends up turning an important debate about the future of an important service, into a flurry of childish lies that doesn’t actually accomplish anything. If we purposely publish distortions of the truth – or outright lies like this one – how can we expect people to have an informed opinion?
The quality of political debate in this country is shocking, and people like you are a big part of the reason why. Never let facts get in the way of petty partisan squabbling, eh?
I know you don’t tolerate dissent so I don’t expect you’ll publish this comment. I don’t really care; I felt someone had to pull you up on such a blatant lie, because for reasons which evade me people do listen to you, and as such you have some sort of responsibility to be honest with them.
Hang on
The BMA believe this
So do the Royal College of GPs
And many other medical institues
And they do so because all this video is saying is true
So the real question is who paid you to peddle your untruths?
Because the reality is the Tories are destroying the NHS, ending guaranteed care and are privatising as much as possible
That’s the reality – the problem is people believe Lansley’s sordid lies which are only surpassed by Cameron’s – who sai there would be no NHS reorganisation when he planned to abolish it instead
The BMA, the Royal College of Nurses and other medical institutes believe this. Which is great. And the people who profit from the status quo have absolutely no reason to defend it, do they?
Unlike you I am paid by absolutely no-one. I am just interested in the truth. And if you think that anything I have said is untrue, then I invite you to prove it.
Please also bear in mind that allowing for private provision of healthcare paid for by the state is a completely different thing to what is portrayed in the video. The video portrays a completely private health service paid for at the point of use by the consumer. That is a pretty poor idea, which is why no-one – even the Tories – is proposing that. And that was the root of my complaint. You are lying when you say that this is the case, and you are (I think) intelligent enough to know this.
Whether or not it’s a good thing to allow private provision of healthcare (paid for out of taxes) is a wholly different argument. And if you want to have a debate about that then fine, it’s a reasonable argument to have (and, by the way, I haven’t actually said whether I agree or disagree with you on this; whether I think the government’s proposals are good or bad. When you accuse me of lying you are making a massive assumption about my opinions, which is a little bit odd to say the least). But at the very least, I ask you to be honest about what has actually been proposed.
If you think the other side are wrong, then it’s absolutely wrong to lie about what the other side are proposing.
I have not lied
No one is lying on this side of the debate
As is clear hospitals are to be sold
GPs are being encouraged to set up private supply companies
EU law will allow any company at any time to challenge state supply and if they are not given the contract to demand millions in compensation
Foundations Trusts are to be allowed to interact with the private sector
They may fail – like private companies, to then be taken over
Only you, Lansley and Cameron are lying
As Cameron did in the election
I’m not lying, I suggest that you actually read the comments I’ve posted here.
My point isn’t that there won’t be private provision of health services. That is clearly what is intended by the proposals, and I’ve not actually said whether I think that is a good or bad thing. I’ve deliberately not said which side of that debate I’m on, because that’s not the point I was making.
My point was that what you’ve described in your previous comment is not what is shown in the video. And what is shown in the video is definitely not what has been proposed.
Trying to scare people into taking your side of the argument with untrue propaganda is not on; it just sullies the debate. And that was all I wanted to comment on.
And you are wrong
What am I wrong about? All I am saying is that attacking a straw man is not an intelligent or productive way to debate something, that it just distracts from the important issues. For the avoidance of doubt, are you really saying that you disagree with this?
Very politely I am saying that you are wasting my time, and that of other readers
I presume that is deliberate
I call it trolling for good reason
Which is why I a) won’t be commenting and b) won’t be posting your comments again
Simon, your post does not contain one single fact and it doesn’t even mention the bill, you talk about “proposals” and a cursory look at them, would you care to tell us what in the Health and Social Care bill you think will be good for the NHS (that is soon to be voted on) and what are bad? (and I mean the bill not the white paper.)
Take for example the part of the bill where there is serious legal doubt if the bill passed in its current form will any longer oblige the Health Secretary to provide a health service “free at the point of need?” Do you think this is a good or bad thing? What do you think will happen if Lansley gets that through?
Patients who cannot get access to general practices or services of commissioning consortiums may have to default to local authorities, which would become the provider of last resort. This means that patients that are elderly or disabled and have more medical needs, may not be able to have their needs met at any particular surgery. What do you think of the possibility that this may create groups of people travelling from one surgery to another in order to access treatment, because no one consortium will want to take too many high dependency patients on because they are too expensive.
From 1 April 2014, all NHS hospital and community trusts are required to become foundation trusts. Foundation trusts may enter into joint ventures with and distribute surpluses to for-profit companies and raise commercial loans without restriction. The NHS Commissioning Board and general practice consortiums will also have powers to form and invest in commercial companies.
Others will be profit making companies that are in healthcare to make a profit for their shareholders, this ultimately means that money the taxpayer pays into the NHS will end being taken out of the NHS and end up in someone’s bank account.
What do you think about the Any willing provider that has b now been changed to
Perhaps Shirley Williiams is a liar too? I actually dont agree with everything she says in the following article (eg more private sector involvement in the NHS) but she raises exactly the same concerns about the Bill as in the video above – ie with no limit on the number of private patients allowed NHS hospitals will eventually become private wth no obligation or indeed scope for the Minster to intervene to ensure NHS provision free at the point of need.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/04/nhs-health-bill-andrew-lansley
I also disagree with Shirley Williams on more private sector involvement in NHS
Buit those who argue we’relying about the NHS really are suggesting a massive conspiracy theory of lies when in fact all we’re telling is the truth about what exactly this Bill seeks to deliver
re gracie:
“would you care to tell us what in the Health and Social Care bill you think will be good for the NHS and what are bad?”
No. Because it wasn’t the point of my initial comment here. I thought that much was really quite obvious, which is why I find it odd that you and Murphy have simply made an assumption that I must be disagreeing with you and have attacked the stuff you assume I’ve said, rather than engaging with what I actually said. It’s a little disheartening really.
All that is disheartening is that you accused those telling the truth of lying
I think you are being deliberately obtuse Simon.
You accused the makers of the video of lying about the content, you said it was “disgusting” and “inaccurate propaganda” you made those accusations but provided no statistical evidences to back up your comments, you could have quoted parts of the video you thought were untrue and provided reasons why you thought they were untrue. It has everything to do the Health and Social Care bill because this is what is being disputed in the video, but then if you had watched it properly and tried to understand it you would have seen that.
By charging exorbitant rates for puerile work, just as they do for defense projects.
Not helped by making a mess about the way patients give consent for their data to be used…..so from assumed consent being frowned upon by the data protection registrar they have reluctantly gone to asking individual consent……and many opt-out.
Then we have the problem of hundreds of health trusts, soon to be complicated even more by hundreds and hundreds of gp “consortiums” with the inevitable data cock-ups that result.
Political interference is high on the agenda for why the projects are a mess…..since politicians cannot even plan for dawn tomorrow.