These are the terms of the agreement reached this morning between the EU and the UK as they relate to EU citizens making application to stay in the UK after Brexit:
I have negotiated quite a lot of deals in my life. Most, thankfully, have been on the basis of mutual trust. That has meant there has been no need to spell out all the nitty-gritty detail: it has been mutually accepted that goodwill would be exercised in doing so.
This deal is the exact opposite of that. If the EU thought it was necessary to specify that a UK application form for their citizens would be ' short, simple, user-friendly and adjusted to the context of the Withdrawal Agreement' then what they are actually saying is that they anticipated the UK putting every possible obstacle in the way of EU citizens remaining in the UK whatever any final agreement might have said.
You might, of course, say that I am nitpicking in pointing this out, but I do not agree. Remember that this morning's agreement has no legal force: all it does is let the parties move on to the next stage of discussion. In that case the message from this clause is loud and clear. Things might have, just about, and at the last-gasp, moved on, but there is absolutely no goodwill between the UK and EU. If something as simple as an application form has to be specified in this level of detail because there is so little trust of the UK's intentions the prospect of reaching a deal at the next round is very low indeed.
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I think you’re right, but the context of May’s ever-increasing “hostile environment” for immigrants is important. The £5.48 Home Office contact charge, the insta-deportation letters, and the general horrors of the UK immigration system (my partner went/is going through it) are unlikely to have gone unnoticed in the EU.
I know
I would not trust them for a moment
The are quite right to be suspicious of this underhand government and in particular Theresa May.
All those provisions counter every spiteful wheeze Theresa May employed as Home Secretary to make foreign citizens’ life hell.
It shows the EU really does do its homework.
And that’s bad news for the mad, hard-Brexit, Singapore-ite faction in the Tory Party. They can expect the EU to insert into any FTA conditions ensuring both regulatory harmonization and, surely, maintenance of appropriate tax rates.
You only have to look at Universal Credit and the treatment of the disabled in this country to know you can’t trust this government to be remotely fair.
It can hardly inspire trust when the man in charge of Brexit negotiations appears to be changing the meaning of words to suit himself. What else can we expect but distrust?
I agree entirely.
I am beginning to think that May et al are just a proxy Government that is actually propped up buy the USA and other states/corporations who just want the UK to be the next wild west frontier for unfettered capitalism and profit grabbing.
And look at this synopsis:
http://blog.spicker.uk/the-joint-agreement-of-the-uk-and-the-eu/
“I am beginning to think that May et al are just a proxy Government that is actually propped up buy the USA and other states/corporations who just want the UK to be t……
Just beginning to think? Oh! well it’s a start I suppose.
Andy
Let me rephrase it:
“I am beginning to think that my long held concerns about May et al being a proxy Government that is actually propped up by the USA and other states/corporations who just want the UK to be the next wild west frontier for unfettered capitalism and profit grabbing are being slowly revealed and confirmed by this Government’s attitude”.
I say this because of the rather relaxed attitude of people like Fox and others who obviously want to strengthen trade bridges with other nations like the US for personal benefit.
But I also say this is because what is happening is close to what happened in Richard Werner’s book ‘Princes of the Yen’.
Japan’s woes were because of a huge artificially credit bubble that popped (a bubble that was created by the Bank of Japan under US pressure to open up and liberalise its economy). The resulting economic catastrophe in Japan was exacerbated by the Bank of Japan behaving rather like the Bank of England does here at the moment. It makes a lots of pronouncements but actually does very little to help.
And meanwhile the economy continues to tank, opening up more moves to privatise our public sector, reduce workers rights and create more individual debt that is actually rent income for the overseas investors.
There is a film about Werner’s book on line with the same name:
http://princesoftheyen.com/
I suggest you watch it – the parallels with what has happened in the West since 2008 (another US influenced event) are uncanny.
The film was made in 2014 and I have watched it twice. My views above are NOT based on me arriving late at my conclusions Andy. Indeed it is a very fine balance in this business between being conspiracy theorist (something I want to avoid) and calling it right.
Don’t be offended, Pilgrim. I was only teasing. 🙂
Best not…
HI Pilgrim,
‘Princes of the Yen’ definitely worth watching and thanks for the link.
Re ‘conspiracy theory’ If there wasn’t a conspiracy there would be no need to diss conspiracy theorists.
The thing about ‘the conspiracy’ is it’s a kind of elite mob rule. Once under way a mob doesn’t need a committee to organise it ; it just feeds on its own energy. War works the same way – once you’ve started it, it doesn’t matter how stupid every body knows it is, it just has to play itself out.
I wonder how the IMF gets away with pretending to be some sort of neutral, independent body? It’s very clever.
Just guessing but the EC probably regards David Davies as a liar (they knew he was a fantasist from decades back). Let’s try this:
Andrew Marr Show on 25 June 2017, Davies: ” I am being very clear about this… In my job… I don’t make guesses… You make those [decisions] based on the data… We’ve got 50, nearly 60, sectoral analyses already done…”
Davies: Commons Brexit Committee 6th Dec 2017 on subject of impact assessments ” There’s nothing… there’s no such systematic impact assessment that I’m aware of..”
Or this: Nicola Sturgeon – Theresa May’s government (this week session of first minister’s questions), describing it as “dissembling, mendacious and totally, totally incompetent”.
This leaves the open question: are all liars & fantasists tories – or are all tories liars & fantasists? – with stupidity thrown in for good measure (I guess the latter?).
First thoughts
The Tories’ pointless Brexit theatrics wasted months. Now for the hard part
Owen Jones
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/08/tories-pointless-brexit-theatrics-hard-part-final-deal
gUARDIAN
I don’t know why anyone is surprised. If a country elects an economically illiterate right-wing, xenophobic, sociopathic government – its objectives will reflect its DNA. Same applies to any government of course. Unfortunately, under our particular form of democracy there are seriously limited ‘checks and balances’ to accommodate the views of the 60% who aren’t represented.
With regard to the EU negotiators, the phrase ‘perfidious Albion’ probably lurks somewhere in the backs of their minds.
However, both sides will muddle through enough to protect their asses as best they can. The mistake at the outset was to polarise both camps, thus negating the chances of reaching a ‘happy compromise’ on the more contentuous issues. Not a strategy that wouold be recommended by any professional mediator/negotiator.
One bizarre aspect of this clusterfxck is that the Conservatives, who are generally regarded as ‘the party of commerce’, have shown little or no basic commercial acumen to achieve a pragmatic, mutually acceptable ‘deal’. Where’s Richard Branson when you need him, lol? 😉 (As far away as possible, I would guess, relaxing in his Caribbean resort).
How could anyone who isn’t “mad” or stupid trust this sick joke of a government, that’s surely the point. The EU negociators and other governments are neither of the above, (unlike so many members of the Brexit cult), so they are doing their job of protecting EU citizens rights from the stupidity and viciousness of the British government.
As with Hammond’s attempt to blame the disabled for the UK’s poor productivity record, or the ludicrous statement by our (joke of a) Defence Secretary regarding UK citizens who joined ISIS, every day that passes the Tories show what a disgrace to this country they are.
I sincerely hope the EU rub the noses of this bunch of clowns firmly into the dirt at every opportunity.
sickoftaxdodgers said;
“I sincerely hope the EU rub the noses of this bunch of clowns firmly into the dirt at every opportunity.”
You do realise that this is our government, don’t you? You and I may not have voted for them but they ARE our government. The EU isn’t; we’re on the opposite side of the negotiating table to them. And none of the members of our government will feel any economic pinch from having the UK’s ‘noses’ rubbed ‘firmly into the dirt’, will they? Only US; we will. You do know this, don’t you?
So can we come up with something a little less …
AllanW says:
December 8 2017 at 2:33 pm
sickoftaxdodgers said;
“I sincerely hope the EU rub the noses of this bunch of clowns firmly into the dirt at every opportunity.”
You clearly object to this.
My country right or wrong? Not for me I’m afraid. Sadly I’d like to see this bunch of venal Tory incompetents humiliated at every turn. They do not understand ‘patriotism’. You owe them no quarter. I certainly give them none.
So can we come up with something a little less …
No, we need to call them out at every opportunity as the unpatriotic liars they are so that we never vote them into power again.
Desp
This looks like humiliation.
I think the EU has got pretty much all they wanted at this stage.
As you would have expected. They are pros; we have acted like amateurs. Worse, we have acted in a way guaranteed to erode good will and trust.
There is nothing agreed today that could not have been wrapped up many months ago.
Can I just point out that the agreement applies to UK citizens in the EU as well as EU citizens in UK. The term ‘Host State’ is used for that reason, and the specification of process applies to both as outlined in the paragraphs prior to the ones quoted
Also, the UK citizens in the EU are getting a worse deal than EU citizens in the UK. All explained here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42279408.
Maybe the lack of trust goes both ways, or it’s just a negotiated agreement?
You are entirely wrong
EU citizens get a right in a state
UK citizens get a right in a state
That is wholly reciprocal
Entirely wrong? I assume you mean the point about UK citizens in the EU rather than the first point of who the agreement applies to?
To quote from the BBC article:
‘UK citizens who move elsewhere in the EU before Brexit day will have the right to stay in that country. However after the UK withdraws, the freedom of movement principles will not be the same for UK citizens living in the EU as EU citizens living in Britain.’ and
‘British in Europe, a group which represents UK citizens in the EU, said both sides had “negotiated away” their rights. Jane Golding, chair woman of the group, said the deal was “a double disaster” for Britons in the EU. She said it was unclear whether automatic residency rights would be upheld and that many people who work across Europe rely on free movement.’
I don’t see the issue
Europe is not a single country
You didn’t know?
‘I don’t see the issue
Europe is not a single country
You didn’t know?’
Yes, surprisingly I did know that. That’s the point. EU citizens retain freedom of movement, but UK citizens in the EU don’t as the agreement stands, despite the EU saying they would protect their rights.
Everyone has rights to a country
What the heck are you talking about?
What I’m talking about is, as reported on the BBC website:
– EU citizens in the UK have the right to stay in the UK and will retain their freedom of movement across the EU as now
– UK citizens in the EU have the right to stay in the country they are in BUT will not have the right to free movement across the EU after UK withdrawal
This would seem to be at odds with the EU promising (Verhofstadt etc) to protect the rights of UK citizens resident in the EU and the UK residents are unhappy about this.
As I say, favours extended in one country in each case
No prejudice at all
This article spells it out very clearly.
This is not a normal deal between partners who have a normal trusting relationship and can skip a few obvious lines in a contract because “they go without saying/writing, we’ve done this before.”
No, nothing normal at all about a government, the UK government, which has allowed abuse of power to go on for 18 months now, sending Home Office letters to threaten deportation; “administrative errors” don’t cut it, sorry, when it happens time and again in such a tense environment,with so much at stake for people’s lives. Nothing normal about the 80 pages in the residency application. Nothing normal in the ridiculous and insulting demands of time sheets of all travels made in the last five years etc etc…
Of course the EU will insist every i be dotted. And they certainly need to. Devious and incompetent together do not make for a good deal maker.
[…] And the UK has had the letter of its new deal with EU citizens currently resident in the country spelt out to it, in great detail. […]
Andy
Accepted – but teasing here is always accompanied by a emoji of some sort.
But please watch the documentary and tell us what you think. It is rather good. I wish they’d release it on DVD.
A quick skim of the joint communiqué reads like like the draft of an adequate Exit Agreement for the EU 27.
Barnier is very good at what he does. The European Parliament and the 27 Governments would *like* a trade agreement; but phase 2 of the negotiation begins with the EU27 perfectly able to say “Fine, that’s the exit. Sign on the dotted line, you can ask for anything more some other time, if we both chose to return to this”.
🙂