Tomorrow is Referendum Day. This is the last blog I will write on the subject before the event. I suspect there will be many who will spend the next decade analysing the outcome and I will, no doubt start to do so soon but I have two other goals now.
My first intention is to ask you to vote. This Referendum is too important not to do so. Please do.
Then, I admit, my hope is that you will vote Remain. I have written a lot on why I will do so. Like many I am deeply disappointed that this campaign did not deliver positive reasons for voting to Remain. At this last moment let me do so.
Because of peace
I know many who criticise the economic foundations of the EU. I have done so and will do so in future. But they are not what it is what about, at its core. The EU is about creating sufficient common ground to prevent one of the most combustible regions on earth from collapsing into war. By and large it has succeeded. The dialogue of cooperation makes it likely that it will continue to do so. Please vote for peace.
Because of equality
Again I know all the criticism of the EU, and not least the over-powerful role of Germany. But for all its weaknesses the EU is an expression of belief in equality. All people can live and work where they want. And markets are open to all within the Union. I would reform some issues on capital movement, because that is not in my view a human right. But let me go to the core of this issue: the EU is opposed to discrimination and again, by and large, it has had some success in promoting this invaluable goal. Please vote for equality.
Because of simplicity
Many will laugh at this idea, but the fact is that the EU makes all our lives a lot easier. It may promote a lot of regulation, but to use an example I know well, very little of that relates to tax, where we create a pile of regulation all of our own. And in fact, as we know from all the abuse that granting individual nations the absolute right to create tax legislation all on their own has given rise to, this hopelessly unco-ordinated approach simply delivers opportunities for abuse, grief for some and ill-gotten gains for others alongside vast amounts of effort to try to get round the problems it creates. No one likes regulation but the truth is no modern society can survive without it. Regulation is literally the reason why I can sit confidently as I write this waiting to sip a cup of tea I have just bought knowing that, with a very high degree of probability, it is safe for me to do so. And co-ordinated regulation of the type the EU provides is the cheapest, most effective type there is. Sometimes we'll be irked by the rules, but any other option will be much more complex, less efficient and harder to enforce. Vote for the simplicity the EU brings to our lives, even if you have never thought about it until now.
Because of the truth
Truth has been peculiarly absent from the Referendum debate. I regret that. If you do however read this blog it is at least possible you have some interest in tax justice. The fact is that the EU has been more effective in delivering the tax justice agenda than any other to date. That does not mean it could not have done more, and better, but I am a pragmatist and I take what I can get. The EU has given me some of that. The EU Savings Directive was the first such effective information exchange from tax havens in the world. The EU Code of Conduct helped transform the tax regimes of the UK Crown Dependencies: I still suspect some will not recover from it. And the EU is, however hesitantly, taking the demand for country-by-country reporting on public record forward in a way no one else is. As with everything else I have noted, please vote Remain, for the sake the truth on tax.
I could of course, mention other positive reasons for Remain. Most though you will be familiar with. And I could discuss why vote Leave is a vote for a more divided, economically inefficient, unequal, fearful society where the chance to control many of the rules that impact on our daily lives will be lost, leaving us out of control of our destiny. But then, you know most of that too.
So instead please vote for peace, equality, simplicity and the truth.
Please vote Remain.
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It isn’t actually the over-powerful role of Germany that’s the problem – it’s specifically the over-powerful role of the Bundesbank, which has on more than one occasion held a gun to the head of its own political masters. Address that, and the follow-on issues that arise with the European Central Bank, and the case for Remain would become overwhelming…
Richard
You’ve got my vote !
I find it hard to understand why, if the Leave reasons are so compelling they have felt it necessary to base their campaign on lies. I also don’t understand why they are allowed to do so. Why does the Electoral Commission or some other body call it out and stop it? How can anyone call this democracy when so much disinformation has been given out.
Good question
There has been a lot of criticism of the Remain campaign, much of it unwarranted. I imagine that everyone has, like I have, been in the position of trying to make a calm rational case in an atmosphere which has become poisonous. It is next to impossible, because every time you try to make a point you get howled down and the mob hurl ad hominems at you. The only way that you can be heard is if there is some sort of referee to ensure that everyone keeps quiet and even then you get ridiculed and are the subject of ad hominems the moment they can start up again. In this atmosphere a cool, rational case is derided as weak, because no-one is interested in facts. The Daily Mail and its ilk have been peddling anti-immigrant and anti-EU stories for 25-30 years and have well and truly softened up a lot of the electorate.
Richard, you will know by now what I intend to do-and that is abstain, which I know yout think is the wrong choice -but I have to stick with what mu conscience tell me (although even that choice sickens me). But, as I’ve said I will go to the booth and attach a concise message to the voting slip’
You will also know that I have a slightly different slant on some of your views of the function of the EU:
1) ‘The EU is about creating sufficient common ground to prevent one of the most combustible regions on earth from collapsing into war’
In an abstract sense this might be true but in REALITY it has been laying the ground for war with its obsession with internal devaluation, the primacy of the banking sector over lives which has forced mass emigration from some countries and left others in absolute tatters. In my view, this comes under the category of ‘banks not tanks’ but it IS war on people and causes death and misery.
2) The rise of fascism in Europe has been carrying on apace for some years, much of it, a result of misdirected anger in relation to economic policy led by IMF/ECB. Lagarde’s now infamous ‘I’ve got my money back’ in relation to Greece is evidence of the utter contempt of real people and real lives on the ground (or in the case of Greece ‘in the ground’).
3) ‘the EU is an expression of belief in equality.’ I think that phrase sums up the grotesque cognitive dissonance at work in the EU. It has become a’paper belief’ and an abstraction that bears little relationship to events on the ground.
4) As regards safety, I accept much of what you say BUT with this proviso: The EU is clearly in hock to big agri business and the fight against unsafe chemicals has to be taken to the EU by campaigning group, rather than the EU itself being the campaigner. Witness the fight to get glyphosates banned in Europe- there is widespread research (particularly from California) yet business interests come first.
I cannot vote for either side and intend to express this the only way I can, I’m not happy about this and have to confess I feel a little panicky and have wavering thinking that I should vote ‘remain’. Yet the feeling of being bullied by false choices when real issues are not touched upon is too much for me and I am angry with those in power of depriving me of real expression for change.
Will my abstention be seen by many on this site as giving involuntary support to the vile Brexit camp? I hope not.
I do not think an abstention can be interpreted that way
Richard-thank you for your understanding – I much appreciate it as I have found the recent weeks deeply difficult with regards to this issue.
Simon
Quaker hugs
Richard
”Will my abstention be seen by many on this site as giving involuntary support to the vile Brexit camp? I hope not.”
You outline some solid sensible criticisms of the EU that I myself support. My issue with abstaining and why I have voted Remain is a complete lack of belief that the Brexit campaign shares any of these concerns. I came to the conclusion that abstaining is a silent vote for Brexit and that the Brexit is a nasty, xenophobic, neo-liberal Brexit. I cannot see how abstaining in this referendum can be anything other than a silent vote for Brexit. If we wake up on Friday still in the EU we can go on fighting for the causes you outline. The danger is if we wake up on Friday outside of the EU we will be fighting much bigger problems. Ultimately you must decide what is right in your heart and head but as someone highly sympathetic to your views I’d urge you to think once more tonight if abstaining and silently voting for Brexit, for that is what you will be doing, is what you really want to do.
Thank you, again, for your posts. I shall also vote remain.
I’d like to add a small comment to the idea that the EU has promoted peace since the inception of the European Coal and Steel Community. It’s often said that it has been NATO that has kept the peace, but in my mind that is a very interesting fallacy because it immediately assumes the default threat came from the Eastern bloc. On the contrary, the countries that now comprise the EU had been in an almost continuous state of war between themselves over *centuries*. Not all at the same time, of course, but at one time or another Austria, Hungary, Belgium, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, the Balkans, Poland, Denmark, Ireland and of course – the United Kingdom have all been at war with each other and sometimes internally. That is unthinkable now. So unthinkable, in fact, that invoking NATO as the peace-keeper completely glosses over the threat to peace and security that has ‘traditionally’ come from *within* the boundary of ‘Europe’.
Being part of the NATO alliance has undoubtedly also served as some motivation for shared enterprise and co-operation but rather to confront a common enemy than to build a positive reason for living together in peace, so nothing to compare with the effect of the EU.
Robin the US now runs NATO as a sort of posse for their adventures. European countries opt in or not.
If Europe were to take action and the US not back it, it probably wouldn’t happen. It is time that Europe thought about having a capacity to act which is not dependent on the USA.
I would also say that it is time we had serious talks with Russia with a view to reducing causes of conflict. It seems to me that they are int he same frame of mind as the UK in the 1950s and 60s. Not quite believing they are no longer a great power and wishing to demonstrate they can ‘punch above their weight’ as the phrase has it. Europe is dependent on Russia for much of its energy. We need to be on better terms with them and not sucked into American posturing such as Trump’s notion that he will make the USA so strong, no one will dare to challenge. It’s a very dangerous idea. I am not sure Clinton is much better, Some the neo-Cons are lining up with her.
The recent NATO exercises in the EU were truly horrendous ‘war-gaming’.
Ian S – I couldn’t agree more with you concerning NATO, which, for my money, is an organisation WAY past its shelf life, which should be wound up and disbanded, its sole current purpose seeming to be the encirclement of Russia, with a view to at least neutralising it, and probably breaking it up, in the interests of US hegemony.
Those who say Russia is threatening Eastern Europe need to look at the facts, as trenchantly set out in this clip by a politician for whom I usually have no time, Zhirinovsky:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1205470182819675&id=100000701140263&comment_id=1205945156105511¬if_t=group_comment¬if_id=1466515346944891&ref=m_notif
What Zhirinovsky says is very ad rem, especially in view of the fact that the West has broken ALL the promises made to Gorbachev, when he agreed to German reunification, and have placed threatening forces in almost all the old Warsaw Pact countries.
The American mainland, of course, was last invaded in 1812 (by us Brits), but Russia has been invaded every century since the 13th, by Tatars (13th – early 16th), Poles and Lithuanians (late 16th-early 17th), Swedes (late 17th -early 18th), French (early 19th), every Western nation in the 1920’s, Germany in the 1940’s, and has ALWAYS – at immense cost in blood (at least 22 million dead on WW2) treasure – prevailed.
My bets are on Russia in alliance with China, and the hope that America will abandon is misguided doctrine of “American exceptionalism” (a doctrine a mere hairsbreadth away from the racial superiority doctrine found in Fascism), and learn truly to live within a multipolar world, and truly to practise its ideals of freedom and real support of freedom for others, abjuring such clear attempts in the other direction as support for the Brazilian coup, for the neo-liberal cause in Argentina, Ecuador, Venezuela, Paraguay, and show remorse for having ejected the moderate Socialist regime of President Zelaya in Honduras in 2009, replacing it with the usual, murderous gang of cutthroat Rightwing elitists. Shame on America for such antidemocratic behaviour (nb: the guiding hand behind that coup was one Hillary Clinton!)
Ian, I was trying to be lukewarm but not too negative about NATO; I was also trying to consider the whole span of time from WWII onwards. I always had doubts about the effectiveness of Mutually Assured Destruction: an unprovable hypothesis set amidst an exponentially growing arms race. Nevertheless I think the existence of NATO throughout the Cold War did provide some *sense* of stability for the West and probably encouraged a sense of shared defense – and therefore a sense of community between its members, albeit in a negative way (‘look: we all hate the other lot!’). It did, at least, give the Warsaw Pact leadership a single entity with which to deal (can you imagine the WP trying to broker effective stability pacts between 30 odd separate entities? Nightmare.)
Whether it was a significant force for preventing war between the Western and Eastern blocs, I am not competent to comment. I am sure there already have been, and will continue to be for many years to come, learned PhD theses and academic conferences between scholars of peace and war studies. I leave that assessment to them.
As for now, I think that the geopolitical games in play are increasingly dangerous. But I also think the last thing we need is the fragmentation of the EU.
The thing that stopped Western Europe from fighting amongst themselves after 1945 was that for the first time, the devastation of war (cities flattened, civilian deaths in great numbers) was utterly visible to ordinary people. They (particularly the Germans) said ‘never again’.
With or without the EU, the appetite for war amongst western European countries is zero.
Pretty similar result for Japan, who have been model international citizens since 1945 without the help of the EU – and for the same reasons.
That and enforced control of the use of their armed forces
Regarding Peace I worry most about Northern Ireland. The EU has provided a framework in which the province and peace process has flourished. I expect a very bleak outcome for NI. Brexit would be bad for Britain economically but a disaster for Northern Ireland. It is curious (or possibly not knowing the mindset) that the DUP support Brexit; possibly they fear that Ulster is sleepwalking towards a United Ireland.
Just a bit of fun, but interesting. A site called eudecision.uk. I am still a little undecided but my score came to 72% remain.
Probably a daft thing to do, like reading your horoscope, so tomorrow I will probably vote remain.
One family member who will vote to leave thinks a new and exciting future awaits. He is not a fascist nor a racist I am sure.
I can see merits both sides, but will play the percentage game and hope for the best.
We can all only hope for the best
If Bremain has been trying to frighten us sometimes – and I think they have – then Brexit have to admit that they have been trying to stir up hatred. Not just a few bad apples either, it has gone wider than that.
Bremain being cautious, wary and even worried about the unknown is not scaremongering, it is prudent and thoughtful. It makes sense to look before you jump, right?
And that is the difference: The Bremainer essentially saying ‘I’m scared about what we don’t known’, while the Brexiter essentially saying ‘I’m scared of people we already know but who are different’
I’m voting for remain for a load of reasons, but that one stark difference above is a good enough one on its own I reckon.
Here here.
This isn’t a general election. What happens tomorrow will be permanant and have repercussions beyond my generation. My grandchildren and their children will feel this – decades down the line.
I will likely be voting Remain tomorrow, but like Simon, I view the binary choice we have been given with significant distaste. When weighing up the pros and cons, I have often pondered whether voting Out would generate the political earthquake required to change the direction of our leaders, but after much deliberation, I came to the conclusion that, while it might make the EU change tack if the UK voted to leave, it probably would not have the same effect in the UK, and might even possibly accelerate the drive to small state neofeudalism. So therefore, as the vote is primarily about the future of the UK, my only rational option is to vote Remain.
What I fear, however, is that a win for Remain is seen by both the UK and the EU as an endorsement of the status quo, so nothing will change and both the UK and EU are dragged into an economic dark ages by wealthy elites who are not only untouched by the ruin inflicted by them, but in many cases enormously enriched by it! Which is why we desperately need voices like yours, Jeremy Corbyn and Caroline Lucas to aid us in the pressing demands for change, both here and in the EU!
I understood the dislike of the choice we have been given and all that flows from it
Agreed…if Remain ‘win’ (it’s all a ‘no win’ for real social justice) Labour MUST, I repeat MUST, get some sort of act together and push vigorously for this change in ideology.
The sad thing is I suspect that Labour will enter into protracted civil war over Corbyn/McDonell vs. the Overton Window grovellers; result: the further rise of the RIGHT .
Hear, hear! Very much agree with Daniel and Simon’s sentiments. Those of us who somewhat reluctantly vote remain have a hell of a responsibility on our shoulders to ensure that it does not let Cameron and Osborne off the hook for creating a situation in which such a vile Leave campaign could gain such traction. The real campaigning work for EU and domestic reform needs to start next week.
I was at John McDonnell’s State of the Economy conference last month and, if that is anything to go by, the grovellers don’t stand a chance. The rank and file are firmly behind Corbyn and McDonnell.
Daniel. Business as usual is indeed one of the biggest worries. However, if Remain prevails too much very vocal discontent has been aired over both msm and social media for DC et al or the EU to carry on as before. What the informed debates (as opposed to the shouting matches) have done is allow a much needed airing of both the way the UK populace feels the EU needs to change, and the fact that many of our European fellow citizens have agreed with the need for change. The EU cannot unhear that, and I think it was Tusk who admitted this week that their elitist, patronising and in some cases (TTIP) approach has been counterproductive.
But, for change to come, it must start and be seen to start very quickly. Too many EU members elections coming up with the hard right making inroads. The public will expect the EU to be much more transparent about its job, and our role will be to actively pa or government to be making common cause for those real reforms. And when, for instance, the Farages of the eu parliament are taking full salary for attending 1 out of 42 meetings WE have to call them out and demand that they do the job they are elected for, or clear of and pay the money back.
In many ways, much of this is our own fault. We do not hold our MEPs or MPs to account sufficiently. We have slept walked into this through our own complacency. Now the hats work begins because if we want a democracy, WE have to work to make our public servants, the Mps/MEPs, work in our interests.
And one of my first demands is to get rid of fixed term parliaments.
And my second is to demand more cross party long term policy planning & action to deal with the key issues of housing, infrastructure, health, education, employment and climate change. That will do for starters. 🙂
No politician can claim that they have not heard loud and clear that business as usual for the benefit of the few will not be accepted.
Gird your loins folks. White knuckle ride coming, either way.
I hope you are right, Windsorlass, but I fear that whatever we endeavour to do will not be enough. Syriza were elected in Greece on a mandate to change the EU, look what happened to them. What makes us think it would be different for us?
And that is ultimately my fear. I think Brexit would be a disaster for anyone without the economic means to avoid it (which is pretty much most of the UK), but Bremain doesn’t signal sufficiently to the political elite in the EU or UK that change is needed, and after a Remain vote, they will be able to ignore such calls by pointing out that the majority of the UK (however slim) are happy with things as they are. Why wouldn’t they?
Peace, equality, simplicity, truth? Not a hope, not with that lot and I no longer believe in fairies either. Bring me my bow of burning gold…….
Those arrows of desire have a lot to answer for
It has been the greatest political con trick of all time as you made reference to in a previous post. Thanks for all your efforts
“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
Varoufakis:
“Both the remain and the Leave campaign are infantilising voters in a rather cynical and astonishing fashion”
We can but hope (in a slightly perverse way) that if remain carry it, the majority is so squeaky that the Conservatives really fall apart and then we have an election and a proper political discussion.
And on voting we need to bear in mind that lovely Plato quote – something like:
The penalty for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.
We live in a country with a Monarch, a House of Lords, a civil service, judges, Director Generals, Agencies, Coangos, Tsars. We have a legislature that, because of the party whipping system, is effectively hostage to our Executive. We have an electoral system which means that, with the exception of a few marginals, you may as well not bother voting.
Take back control from whom and give it to whom? Take back control from the European Court, from the Commission, from the European Parliament, from the Council of Ministers and give it all to a man so cynically ambitious, so unscrupulously jaded, that he changed his allegiance from pro-EU to anti-EU two months ago, just to get the keys to the top office?
Is that what “taking back control” looks like? Not to me
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1119
Sorry forgot the quote marks in my excitement!
I’m still very torn, and it’s with a very heavy heart, but I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on this.
Of course the leave campaign has been led by a a disgusting bunch of xenophobes and the thought of voting with them on anything makes my skin crawl, but as this analysis suggests, the chances of reforming the EU in a meaningful way any time soon are very slim:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/thomas-m-hanna-joe-guinan/is-another-europe-possible
Essentially I’ve had to ask myself whether I think we can set a better example and I’m optimistic that we can. None of the Brexit inclined people I know trust or like Johnson, Farage, Gove (or May for that matter) and so I’m optimistic for our future outside the constraints of the hard-wired neoliberalism of the EU.
Hope over reason? Possibly, but my estimation of the English (as likely it would be) is not as dire as that held by certain portions of the remain camp who seem to think that we need saving from ourselves.
I hope you don’t regret it
I will be voting to leave tomorrow for the reasons given below.
If anyone thinks I am wrong and can convince me that I am wrong I will reconsider the way I intend to vote
We joined in 1973 becoming the seventh member state. There are now 28 member states. Many of these new members have economies out of sync with the UK including much higher unemployment levels and far lower wage rates. With the freedom of movement it is natural to expect that the flow of workers moving from high unemployment/low wage rate member states to the UK will continue. Infact logic implies that this will continue until the unemployment levels and wage rates of those other member states equals or betters those of the U.K.
I have no argument or criticism of those non UK workers in choosing to re locate to the UK. If I were in their position I would probably do the same. It is the right thing for them to do.
The problem I have is that the UK is not prepared for the absorption of 300000 extra people each year. To be prepared we would be embarking on massive infrastructure projects to build new housing, roads, schools, hospitals, etc. This is not happening and based on history is unlikely to happen.
So because freedom of movement means we are unable to control the number and nature of people coming to the UK and we are not building the infrastructure required to accommodate them, there will be more pressure on the existing infrastructure, so housing/rents will continue to rise, it will be harder to get school places, class sizes will increase, the NHS will be even more hard pressed, waiting lists will increase, charging for certain procedures will have to be introduced, competition for university places will increase and there will be much more competition for jobs and continued downward pressure on wage rates and employment conditions.
So these are the reasons I will be voting leave.
Can you convince me that I am wrong and should vote to stay?
Answer me this question?
How will we look after our old in the next thirty years without immigration?
We cannot do it
Of course we need immigration.
But we need to be able to control who comes in
If we are unable to produce our own nurses, then of course we need nurses from elsewhere. And the same for each occupation.
I find it interesting that the young are more likely to vote stay, yet these are the very people that will suffer by containing uncontrolled immigration from other member states. For it is they who will pay higher housing costs, fail to get their children in to schools, universities, GP practices and above suffer increased competition for the jobs they seek and suffer compressed wages and employee benefits.
Not at all
They have the sense to realise what open mindedly working with other delivers
And you nay not have noticed, but we already control migration so stop talking nonsense
Richard, is it not the case that if we wish to remain trading within the Single European Act system, whether we’re in or out of the EU, we have to accept the free movement of workers arrangement?
That certainly seems to be the view of the Norwegian Prime Minister, Erna Solbwrg, in the following article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-leave-european-union-norway-prime-minister-erna-solberg-warning-a7084926.html
I would say that this somewhat calls into question Gareth’s argument above, concerning the need to plan and cater for population growth, which looks likely to take place in any event, making it better to be IN, where we can at least amend the rules.
Clearly, what’s needed is a) a recognition of this reality and b) a Government willing to address that need.
Alas, I cannot see the state-stripping vandals, Johnson and Gove, signing up to any such reconstruction and regeneration; indeed, quote the opposite, especially given Sir Job Major’s assesent that trusting those two with the NHS was like trusting a hungry python with your let hamster.
I, and my wife, will most definitely be voting IN tomorrow.
If we stay in the single market ( and we can do so but leave the EU) then we must accept free movement
We need to discuss reform, but that can only happen if we are in the EU
Gareth
The world is still in some form of recession caused by American laxity in regulating its financial system which led to the 2008 crash.
Not because EU member states already had bad economies – up to 2008 the EU was doing very well. It was stable.
Even China had to dump its unbought steel on the market because of this recession which was the tipping point for Welsh steel. Global freight carriers are carrying less freight. So how is this a EU created problem if it is world wide USA created one?
The other issue is that the UK could use it’s sovereignty to print money to absorb these immigrants but the Tories do not want to. By cutting back on public finances, the Tories make health, schooling and housing more scarce so that those of us who need them face more competition for them. This is a UK domestic position and policy that has nothing to do with the EU. It is a Tory choice.
And what sort of ‘recovery’ have we had in the UK as a result of that? It is a low wage one – advocated by the very Tories who are fighting amongst each other over BREXIT. The Tories collectively support the UK as a low wage economy. It is also the Tories who are very anti-trade union. But with strong trades unions, it might be harder for employers to use immigrants to bring down wages.
And don’t forget that when the Tories brought in the living wage, a number of fine British businesses then started to reduce pay and conditions for workers – not the EU.
Looking at your comment I would say that you are being exploited by the Leave campaign.
I say this because it is not my job to convince you. YOU have to convince yourself my friend. Your reasons for voting to leave are far from convincing to me.
C’est la vie mon ami. Bon chance.
134,000 of that 330,000 were students coming to our universities for full-time study. Possibly more than that, since that is the net student numbers, and I’m not sure if they count UK students abroad in net immigration figures.
78,000 came here with definite job offers, many in schools and the NHS – imagine the strain on schools and hospitals if they were turned back.
UKIP have confirmed they would not look to reduce those numbers (students and desirable immigrants) in the event of Brexit.
The strain on schools, homes and the NHS has nothing to do with immigrants (who are, in fact, actually helping out) and everything to do with this governments’ ideological desire to minimise the state and privatise everything except Government, police and the military! (and I’m not even sure about the last two!) Do you believe people like Michael Gove and Boris Johnson would suddenly decide to invest in necessary infrastructure and training in the event we leave the EU?
All eminently sensible reasons to give the EU a second chance.
A vote for leave now is akin to jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Whatever the result however, I wish everyone good luck in the future whatever happens.
we joined in 1973, they have had many second chances, they should have given Cameron more, they will not change
I will be at my voting station first thing tomorrow morning to vote for Remain Gareth with a clear conscience as to why I am doing it and satisfied with my efforts to understand the issues.
I am voting on what matters to me. No what I am being told that matters by anyone else – Leave or Remain.
And I would recommend that critical consciousness like approach to everyone.
To answer your specific point, the UK has had a love/hate relationship with Europe for as long as I cam remember. Our own poor politicians attack Europe whenever they feel the need to divert attention away from difficult issues because nothing unites this island people more than a good fall out with someone – especially if they are perceived to be bigger than us. We respond to being told that there is an enemy at our gates.
If we stopped blowing hot and cold about Europe, then maybe we’d be taken more seriously by the other nations?
For those of you who think that voting Leave or not voting is an effective pop at neo-liberalism then please think again. A neo-liberal government like the Tories and even New Labour would not really work too hard to cure the EU of its neo-lib infection.
But a Corbyn led Labour Party ( or a coalition of which his party was a member) might start in 2020. I hope that we remain in Europe and work harder at reforming it. And the place to start is the ECB – make no mistake.
‘I wish everyone good luck in the future whatever happens.
That’s a good wish -well need it and we will also need solidarity and clarity and those of us in the Labour Party ( me included!) need to light bonfires under posteriors to make sure they are not ‘asleep at the wheel’ any more.
Simon, I see that you are still determined on abstaining, although you are now wavering towards Remain. I’ll therefore make one last plea to you, and others on here in a similar vein, who are thinking of abstaining, or voting Leave. If I appear to be nagging/begging, I sincerely apologise.
I’m not going to enumerate the positive reasons for voting Remain, as Richard has already done that better than I could. I’m simply going to state that a victory for the Leave side will be a triumph for cynicism, stupidity and brazen lying, carried out by the most comtemptible politicians and their fellow ideological travellers I’ve seen in my life.
As I’ve said, I was at the Wembley debate, and the one sickening memory that sticks in my mind is the sight of Andrea Leadsom spending 2 or 3 minutes lying through her teeth about how we could renegociate trade treaties with the EU and the rest of the world in a couple of years, and going completely unchallenged by the (mostly) feeble Remain speakers. And all said with a stupid ‘trust me’ Cheshire cat grin.
As the presentation by Michael Dougan shows, this is pie in the sky nonsense, so Leadsom is either completely dishonest, or completely ignorant. Either way, she is absolutely unfit to be in any position of power in this country. But if you abstain, then, as MayP has already said:
“And on voting we need to bear in mind that lovely Plato quote — something like:
The penalty for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”
Please, please vote Remain.
I haven’t refused to participate , I went to the polling station and affixed my reasons for abstention, I feel clam and relaxed about that decision.
Gareth & AdrianD
Immigration from outside the EU, which the current British government controls, is higher than EU immigration. So our government is at fault, not the EU. Parliament is supreme — it has just legislated itself to be subservient to the EU in certain circumstances – and it can build the infrastructure if it chooses. It has chosen not to. Job for Parliament, not the EU.
Have you seen this half hour video, which shatters many preconceptions?
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/06/21/dishonesty-on-an-industrial-scale-prof-michael-dougan-on-brexit/
As even Sarah Wollaston MP has said – you are more likely to be cared for or treated by an immigrant in the NHS than find one next to you in the queue.
We don’t need saving from ourselves — we just need a practical examination of the facts and to think what might be the consequences for us and the rest of Europe, which, it must not be forgotten, was the cause of two world wars and which cost Britain, among others, very dear.
We weren’t ‘in Europe’ then but we ended up very much in it – in all senses.
http://markavery.info/blog/
Mark Avery for REMAIN.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125003
Someone I respect
Britain can be a surprising place. Four years ago during the London Olympics, England and Britain turned into something almost magical; from the opening ceremony to the wonderful inclusiveness towards athletes of all races and colours it was Britain at its best. This seems to have vanished into the mists.
Where has that Britain gone? I’m Irish and for the first time since the Warrington Bombings I have had racial abuse. (I was totally ashamed of the Warrington bombs – NOT IN MY NAME). There is a 1930’s feeling in the air. I am particularly sensitive as (sorry to repeat) my dad was in Germany from 1937-39 doing a PhD and had first hand knowledge of the Nazis. Said if you wanted Hermann Goering it was very easy on the Ku’damm at two in the morning as he was almost always out drinking beer in his favorite Beer Keller till then.
It looks like there will be a bloodless right wing coup. I’m sorry but despite the genuine distaste many have (and certainly include me) for the Neoliberalism leanings of EU, it is the least worst option. Neoliberalism is a dead man walking and can’t possibly survive in the EU as a whole, but can well survive in a Lesser England for many decades.
I should welcome Brexit as an Irish Republican it will destroy Northern Ireland’s economy and lead to a United Ireland; but it won’t be bloodless or without immense pain. To be honest the Jingoistic Nationalistic arguments have been played out in Ireland ad-nausiem over the last hundred years. They are a complete illusion. I want NI to be a peaceful, prosperous sectarian free place an whether NI is part of Britain or the Republic is of no interest to me.
Scotland looks as if there will be a 25% pro staying in the EU result looking at the last opinion polls. I have many Scottish who were bitterly disappointed last year when there was a narrow stay vote. In the case of Brexit the likelihood of Scotland leaving is much greater than 50:50? (I think it is a near certainty they will leave).
For those on the left it is scary. Without Scotland the prospect of an increasingly right wing permanent Tory majority with ever increasing censorship is likely. They will become bolder. I used an Adolph Hitler quote earlier today “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” The Brexit campaign is already doing this and Brexit will convince them it works. Don’t believe it can’t happen here.
At the end of the day I’m Irish and will retain EU citizenship. Even if Brexit happens there are so many Irish living in England and visa versa (about 1.2% of the UK population is Irish born but about 6% of the Irish population is UK born but the statistics vary depending on source) and existing treaties have been enacted since 1923. I can’t see fairly free movement of people stopping between the two countries.
For those on the left thinking about voting Brexit, I know feelings are running high. Maybe – just maybe the greatness of Britain evident during the Olympics just four years ago will reemerge but I can’t see it. “Lights are going out all over Britain”
Please vote remain!
Thanks Sean
I share your fears
Congratulations on the ROI 1-0 win over Italy just now in the Euro football competition. I was over the moon with that header!
It is bizarre that we may be out of Europe by the end of the week, but England, Wales and Northern Irish teams remain in the competition.
It’s a funny old world eh?
I suppose in current circumstances I should gloss over the “as an Irish Republican it will destroy Northern Ireland’s economy and lead to a United Ireland”. That’s probably for after the referendum!
But as for racial abuse I think it is pretty odd. I’ve had it the other way – in Britain in an ‘Irish Republican’ area of London, years ago, – they used to call it County Kilburn – and I hoped all that was finished. It ought to be.
But really all this is pretty insignificant by comparison with just rubbing along with each other, which is the daily interaction of most of us.
And, as you say, rather different than that was evidenced in the Olympics. It is down to the general ambience, both from politicians and the media – and at least Blair, for all his faults, focussed on Olympic inclusiveness.
Hopefully by voting remain we can rid ourselves of some of these old – and current – overt prejudices.
I felt at the time the Olympics were rather too twee to be real. But I should have been less cynical and realised what the alternative was.
I certainly endorse Remain!
‘greatness of Britain evident during the Olympics just four years ago’
I’m sorry Sean I can’t agree with that view – at the risk of incurring Godwin’s law accusations, I found the Olympics against a backdrop of rising food bank use, the harassment of the ill, the sanctioning of the unemployed, the bedroom tax causing random and purposeless suffering, an awful piece of corporate grandstanding.
“- The single biggest item of spending has been preparing the Olympic park: at £1.822bn, it includes the local infrastructure, roads, cleaning up the site and powerlines
– That’s followed by the venues, which cost £1.106bn, and the most expensive is the Olympic stadium at £428m
– The cheapest venue is the basketball arena at only £4m
– While security is budgeted at £533m – there’s another £475m budgeted to cover army, security services and police spending (that includes surface to air missiles on tower blocks)
– Legacy specific funding – ie the money for making sure the park has a future once the games are over – is £296m for ‘park transformation’, to be spent by the London Legacy Development Corporation” (source: Guardian)
This against the backdrop of Tory divisiveness creating hatred and bitterness in our communities benefit cut related attacks on the disabled and those in social housing and the ‘we’ve no money ‘ myth being propagated at every opportunity.
The part of the Olympics that had most meaning for me was when the oleaginous wretch, Osborne was booed as he opened the paralympics. At the time I thought this was a public turning point as I watched Osoborne grin cheesily as he was booed-I was wrong, the divisiveness got worse and has crescendos further. The Grandstanding of Coe during this time was utterly repulsive as he pretended that it was all due to private finance and downplayed the public money used which was most of it. Coe’s salary for this job was £366,000 combined with hi £1000 per meeting he attained and his generous House of Lords expenses claims.
I wasn’t the only one by far to have concerns about the Olympic glamour in the light of a Government that was harnessing its own citizens -talk about the 1930’s , Berlin came to mind!
Don’t get me wrong, I think sport is great and I’m a great fan of my local Rugby Team-Gloucester! But political grandstanding against a backdrop of one of the most right-wing Governments in Europe was unstomachable for me.
Sean, the reason all that fell-good ‘vanished into the mists’ as you put it was because there was no substance to it in the first place, so once it was over it was back to divisiveness/social marginalisation/lying statistics/economic myths as ideology and the harassment of the ill/poor/vulnerable.
Simon
I agree with you and all you have said in the discussions about the referendum, I really do not know how or even if to vote. As a socialist I am against the capitalist/finacialist European state. As a Unite Workplace Rep. I fear the loss of worker’s rights if the UK leaves the EU. As an older person whose health can only get worse with time I fear the NHS destroying Leave campaign leaders/liars. As someone who lives less than half a mile from where the murderous Neo-Nazi (Godwin can sod off) Mair worked I fear the rise in racism that Leave seems to be promoting.
It seems as though I should vote Remain but I don’t know how to force myself to do that-perhaps I should abstain
Trog-I understand the anguish. I decided I would not be ‘bullied’ into a faux choice but I DID feel I participated by going to the booth and affixing my abstention statement. Tomorrow I might feel I did the wrong thing-I don’t know.
If large numbers of people express their disgust with the choice and the campaign itself it will register somewhere – good luck with your decision, it’s not a happy place to be in at present.
With luck, we stay in.
And then the work starts on root and branch reform.
All digits crossed.
Oh heavens yes
Remain cannot be the end, at all
If remain win I predict nothing will change
We will continue in the EEC rather like a school child returning from having been in the naughty corner.
Our influence in the EEC will have been diminished.
In or out we will be at the back of the que in the EEC
Hopefully Remain will win, then I hope that everyone involved in the two campaigns do not stop campaigning to ensure that the UK & Europe is a fairer & more democratic society. There is so much to do to ensure our government’s policies (whether in or out) don’t totally destroy the whole fabric of our society. Pensions, the NHS, a real living wage, proper jobs without zero hour contracts, good social care through more state run supported housing schemes for the elderly. It’s simple if we have the right people in power.
‘It’s simple if we have the right people in power.’
Min- there is no party that is the ‘right people’ at present.
I don’t see any prospect if real wages rising anytime soon. Most research has shown the hollowing out of the middle classes in both the UK and USA with wage stagnation over the last 20 years. Add to this the dismantling of union power and dare I say cheap non-UK labour as other factors. (Against this background you realise what a great job the late Bob Crow did in getting tube workers wages to where they are now – after 6 months training twice the wages of a newly qualified junior doctor or teacher).
I still like this American video explaining what has happened in USA but I think also applies to the UK
https://youtu.be/uB7jdjsFErM
The research also shows a greater proportion of the cake going to capital rather than labour.
Staying in will continue the supply of cheaper labour. In the referendum campaign, a dentist was recalling how he went to see his principle for a raise and was laughed at, the principle saying he could easily replace the dentist with a similarly qualified/experienced dentist from another EEC member state.
There is no sign of the neo liberal extreme capitalist model we have changing.
So why will real wages increase.
On care homes I agree with you.
On you and yours this week a professor from my old London college, QMC was interviewed and he was rightly decrying the current pattern of venture capital firms running care homes as their business model assumes a 12% return on capital employed.
It would be far preferable for that 12% to be pumped back in to the care home to provide better food, staff and premises and/or to reduce the fees charged to residents.
I voted ‘Leave’ some time ago and have been feeling wobbly ever since. However, yesterday’s editorial in the Morning Star, written by their fine young editor Ben Chako, brought me back to feeling good about the choice which I had no wish to make. http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-1bff-Why-the-Morning-Star-supports-a-Leave-vote#.V2xf4uAkrIU
Could it be that the scare tactics of stay have made people thinking of voting leave ashamed of airing their thoughts publicly but these same people voting leave on the privacy of the ballot paper?
Looks as if you are right Gareth, however as so many people in the know predicted, the whole exercise was a farce by Cameron. He is now back peddling and trying to hang on as if nothing has happened. How can any sane person have any confidence in a government that lies, manipulates & cheats for person gain? Liam Fox said there will be a cooling off period of 2 years… we can’t do anything until then… so all the spin etc.. what was it for? No doubt it will unfold in the next few days. Do you really want this government in any form writing new rules & neotiating behind closed doors our future? Where has this got us? I think I will leave this country as it has shown a large majority of people up in their true colours and I don’t like what I see.
I think what it shows is that we have two nations
On this occasion the view of the non-London elite has prevailed