As the Guardian reported yesterday:
Just weeks after many people in England united around its national flag as the country's female football team won the European championships, the cross of St George and the British union jack are being raised again in communities across the country. This time, however, it is part of an increasingly organised campaign that claims to be purely about patriotism but which many fear – amid a climate of anti-migrant protests and rising far-right activity – could be much more divisive and dangerous.
The campaign, which seems to be centred around Birmingham, has the aim of hanging the flag of St George, as the flag of England, on lamp posts. The Guardian features pictures of this happening, and apparently, funds are being raised to make it commonplace.
As the Guardian notes, those raising these funds say:
“This is NOT racist never has been never will be.”
They added, apparently:
“We have members of the community of all ethnicities and religions stopping by and praising what we are doing so please don't call this racist.”
The defensiveness of the language used is quite extraordinary, and would appear to be a perfect example of the commonplace right-wing technique that I noted yesterday when saying:
It is worth noting what I say there about the way the far-right and fascists use DARVO — deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender — as a deliberate gaslighting technique.
But let me take these statements at face value and presume that they are not racist. Instead, let me describe how I feel about them. I find them profoundly intimidating and intimidatory.
There is, I acknowledge, a good question to be asked about why so many people who live in England are unsettled by their own flag, and the answer appears to have nothing at all to do with patriotism. It is, instead, in my opinion, about the political economy of identity in England and about how unsettled national stories shape bad economic choices.
The English flag, the cross of St George, does, after all, carry baggage. Unlike the dragon of Wales or the saltire of Scotland, the English flag was entwined with empire and domination. It does not easily symbolise community or solidarity. It recalls power imposed, at home and abroad. That legacy means it cannot be waved without raising ghosts, and in this respect, I most definitely believe in ghosts.
There is, to add to this concern, the reality that has to be faced, which is that since the 1970s, the cross of St George has been adopted by far-right extremist groups in England. I have lived through the eras of the National Front, the British National Party, the English Defence League, and others, who have used this flag as a banner to symbolise their demands for exclusion and division. Like it or not, that stain has not been erased. To wave the English flag can still be, and is, read as an act of aggression.
This can be contrasted with the situations in Wales and Scotland. Their identities are shaped by survival and, to some degree, resistance against England, which has, rightly in my opinion, been seen as their oppressor over centuries. Their flags do, as a consequence, symbolise culture, community and care.
That is not the case with the English flag. Too often, and for too long, that has seemed to be a symbol of oppression against others. Whether it was once in the Empire, or now in its use to symbolise opposition to immigrants, Europe, the Welsh, Scottish and Irish, the narrative always appears to be the same: it is one of aggressive oppression. The English flag is not one that symbolises inclusive belonging; it is instead a sign of intended exclusion.
This identity gap has political and economic consequences. As a matter of fact, politicians have and still are using this identity gap to exploit unsettledness.
The Conservatives wrap themselves in the flag when convenient, offering nostalgia and division in place of substance.
Labour now wraps itself in the union flag, fearful of being tainted by English nationalism, but nonetheless succumbing to the narratives of exclusion as a result, most especially when seen by all those who view this country as an oppressor. and around the world, billions of people have reason to think that.
Reform and Farage's predecessor parties have all used flags with the deliberate intention of symbolising difference, boundaries, borders, and so exclusion. There has been nothing accidental about them doing so.
I, amongst millions living in England, do feel threatened by that. And why wouldn't I? This flag has been used as the symbol of the oppressor of the country from which large parts of my family come. What else are we meant to think when it is waved by those who deliberately want to promote it as patriotic and shout that doing so is not racist, indicating at the same time that even if it is not, it is most definitely about creating division, which division is undoubtedly harmful to the cohesion of society in this country.
The resulting vacuum leaves Englishness without an anchor in progressive politics, and that vacuum spills into economics.
Austerity was sold as "standing tall" and "living within our means", not as an economic argument (there are no economic arguments for austerity), but as an appeal to a wounded national pride. The inference is that we must show a "stiff upper lip" and all that.
In the same way, Brexit was framed as "taking back control", again, not an economic case, but as an identity claim.
And if it can be argued that even made-up "fiscal rules" and claims such as "the need for credibility with markets" are dressed up as the economic version of waving the flag. There are ways in which politicians without ideas pretend to long-suffering people that endurance and sacrifice are virtuous in themselves, and so agony is worth enduring.
What they actually reveal is a society that now has no confident or inclusive national story. The result is that politics has to lean on myths, and right now those myths are being used to sell economic harm.
What can be done about this? If England is to have a healthier politics and economics, it needs a new story about itself. That would need to be one that shows that its flag represents care, solidarity and fairness and that ties belonging to the work of building sustainable well-being, not to nostalgia for empire. Until that story exists, I think the use of the English flag will remain profoundly unsettling, and the politics built on it will keep doing damage.
The unease around the English flag is not, then, just cultural. It is about political economy in action. An identity left hollow is easily filled with myth, and myths have been used to sell austerity, Brexit and inequality. If England is to have an economy that works for all, it needs a flag that symbolises community and a story to match. We are a long way from there right now.
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Interesting of course that these so called Patriots fly the flag of St George NOT the Union Flag
So presumably they dont want the Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish or simply seek to subjugate them.
BTW its the Union Flag, the only occasion when its the Union Jack is when it is flown from the Jack Staff – flagpole in the bow of a ship
Your observation is absolutely a great correct. This is all about oppression, so of course they cannot fly the union flag, because they still wish to oppress the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is part of their agenda.
Vexillologists say that the terms ‘Union Flag’ and ‘Union Jack’ are interchangeable:
“…‘Union Jack’ [is not] a name specific to a Union Flag flown in the bows of a warship. The Admiralty used both names interchangeably from the seventeenth century onwards, irrespective of use. An Admiralty Circular of 1902 pronounced that either name was officially valid. And in 1908 Parliament approved this verdict…”
https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/
Thank you. I was not aware of that. I was trying to be careful today to use the term union flag, and not Union Jack, but now you have made it clear I do not need to be quite so pedantic.
Questions to those promoting the “butcher’s apron” in Birmingham:
Why don’t you fly the union flag on your lamp-posts?
Is there something about Wales and Scotland and NI that you want to disown?
Or is it something else?
Spot on.
And yet you support Scottish independence – your hypocrisy is astounding.
I believe in England. What I do not believing is the capture of its flag by the far right. The two are fundamentally different things. Can’t you see that?
Dr Samuel Johnson 18th century-said ‘Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.’
George Orwell quoted novelist, diplomat, and Free French warrior Romain Gary
“Patriotism is the love of one’s own, and nationalism is the hatred of others”.
Here in the rural Somerset 15 minutes drive from where King Alfred rallied the Saxons to oppose the Danes, it is part of our identity. It was also carried by the Peasants in the 1381 Revolt. I don’t want to lose that but equally I don’t want it to be waved outside hotels with refugees inside.
It is important to separate the two. I hope it can be done.
From Wikipedia:
‘On the evening of 7 April 1775, [Dr Johnson] made a famous statement: “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.” The line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general but rather what Johnson saw as the false use of the term “patriotism” by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (the prime minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed most “self-professed patriots” in general but valued what he considered “true” patriotism.’
The distinction is worthwhile, and important, and one I would endorse.
There is nothing wrong with having pride in, or affinity to, a country, but it has to be based upon the merits of the place, and not upon its capacity to oppress or to create artificial distinctions that cannot be justified.
I live in a predominantly white, working class area. There are a lot of flags appearing. They make me feel uneasy. I know some of the people who are putting them up slightly. They are buying into the lie that we are being ‘taken over’ by immigrants.
A nearby disused council depot was recently put up for sale. The rumour that it was being sold ‘to be turned into a mosque’ went around and the council have taken it off the market in order to consult with the local population.
A number of years ago, before I lived here, there was a BNP councillor. We now have three Green councillors, who get re-elected by virtue of the fact they are the only people who show up and do anything around here. Turnout in local elections is below 20%
I’m expecting a Reform councillor next year, I’m afraid to say.
Caroline Lucas’s book Another England is well worth a read.
The English could, usefully ask themselves: who (politically) controls England . The parliament at Wezzie is +/- an English parliament – with Scots & Welsh& N.I. having token representation. In turn, policy & laws reflect the (English) party which forms the gov’. In this case LINO. In turn this begs the question – who funds & controls LINO? A clue to this is
a) the recent proscribing of an org supporting Palestinians
b) the fact that the upper echelons of the LINO gov’ are all zionists.
Thus flag waving (slow news week in the dogs days of the summer?) is an unpleasant distraction from an equally unpleasant reality: the setting of English/British foreign policy with respect to the middle east is defined by zionists who for the most part toe the line of the gov’ of Israel and who are funded by those with interests inimical to those of England/the UK. How can England have an identiy when in important areas, foriegn govs with which the English have zero in common, call the shots on very important issues. None of this is ever discussed in what passes for main stream news – why would it – zionist to the tips of its fingers. So much for flags & “taking back control”..
Mike
To add to your excellent post, US State Dept. pressure is applied to American allies to support Israel. It is why several Pacific island States always vote not to recognise Palestine.
How much we never hear. When 800 officials in the EU, Uk and US told their govts. last year that they were in danger of complicity in war crimes, the BBC report said it was unprecedented. A major news story surely? Yet I can find no discussion of it in the media. I can only assume ‘the lobby’ got our government to shut down discussion.
Such omissions are staggering and cannot be by chance.
What other country in the world has this problem? This mainly Lefty and middle class squeamishness about the English flag or Union Jack is ridiculous. (See old backlash against Emily Thornberry) And perhaps a symptom of why Brexit/Farage are winning – others seemingly being prioritised over the native (often working class) population.
Stay in the current times. Most people want their communities and country to be better and stronger in some way. (Policy treatments may vary.) England has many local identities as well which are perhaps underused.
Who cares whether this problem is to be found in any other country or not? I am writing about the very particular problems associated with the English flag, partly because of its association for centuries with oppression, and secondly because during my lifetime it has been captured, far too often, by the far right, and no one else, to be used as a symbol of continuing oppression of those who the groups in question wish to treat as the “others“ in society on whom they wish to pile blame for whatever condition it is that they think is wrong within the society in which they are living. I was not discussing a general issue. I was discussing a specific issue.
And please do not say that I am not interested in the cause of the working class, because I very clearly am. Somebody who has spent vast amounts of time trying to work out how to develop policy that will prevent poverty and improve the income of people who are denied power is most certainly interested in the cause of the working class. In fact, it is precisely because of that that I am so worried that the cause of the working class is now being taken over by those who have absolutely no interest in their well-being, including the likes of Nigel Farage from Richard Tice. These money baggers whose only interested in life is in exploitation have precisely no interest whatsoever in the working class, and would on the basis of their policies, leave the vast majority of the working people of this country worse off. What baffles me is why you think any such person is interested in advancing your cause when it is so obvious that they are not. I am.
Policy wise you’re great! Nothing personal meant, was showing general trends. (And never said Farage would be a good thing…)
“Shallow patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.” (From Dr. Johnson)
Agreed
There you are! I hope that you are OK Richard.
I was out visiting some of my affordable housing schemes yesterday in the city/town where I work and was struck by how many ‘Butcher’s Aprons’ I saw on display in the ‘burbs – some were huge.
On the radio was Damien Green – a Tory politician who had been caught watching porn on his work computer at work (Parliament) but still seen as a valid voice ‘worrying’ about immigration and how it was making people take ‘extreme views’. And then Farage waded in. I had to turn it off, it was unbearable!! And a local council has effectively placed a huge question mark as to where we put people escaping horror.
What was it that Samuel Johnson said: “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”
Thatcher said that there was no such thing as society. I am beginning to suspect she was right, but she stated it as an objective which looks to be being achieved.
I tempted to say of a society infected with this sort of thinking ‘Stick a fork in their ass – they’re done’.
I don’t know if the idea is widespread in England but there have been some people suggesting, on social media, that the union flag and the St George flag should be flown on “every street throughout the UK”.
Not wishing to burst anyone’s bubble but – and this is putting it politely – that’s unlikely in Scotland.
I think that there is no chance of that happening, but the comment does in itself show how little those who make it understand about the country that they live in.
The flag, the cross, God and country, our Christian heritage, patriotism, our country, the British way of life, British values, kith and kin, our proud past.
Don’t panic, I haven’t joined the EDL. But the above are all examples of “positive” phrases, used in divisive, racist or fascist politics, that send a shiver down my spine (being Scottish/Welsh doesn’t help).
The question I have is, while agreeing wholeheartedly with the sentiments above, how do we most effectively respond?
Union flags (sometimes upside down!) and St George’s flags appear round my neighbourhood, mostly during football tournaments but some houses (a tiny minority but noticeable) have permanent flagpoles in the back garden, some have a permanently draped English flag on a front window sill.
Emily Thornberry showed us how NOT to respond with her classist mockery of “white van man” and flags –
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30148768
but what IS the best way to respond? I’m particularly exercised, as a follower of Jesus, by the hijacking of the Cross and “Christian culture”, and that’s the issue I come across amongst my fellow Christian friends and tend to have conversations about, usually talking about Christian Zionism and USA Christian nationalism. Those conversations I can handle but they can be painful and occasionally lead to a parting of the ways (that happened in the last month over Israel/Gaza and war crimes). I’ve been doing a fair bit of reading on Christian Zionism the better to rebut it.
I’ve never, so far, had a discussion about flags.
The EDL carry the physical cross on their thuggy marches, Reform regularly use the word “Christian” in their divisive fascist rhetoric, Kemi Badenoch professes atheism and yet espouses “Christian culture”. (So does Simon Jenkins)
So far, my approach is to be positive rather than dismissive. What are the far-right “against”? I try and tell a positive human story about that – about an individual refugee, or a real victim of racist divisive politics, or, in church, about Christian ethical standards and social justice issues, rather than the politics of establishment Christian institutions. Occasionally I will ask challenge them to think about the personal qualities & ethics of a populist politician.
But flags… i know how I FEEL, but knowing what to DO?? That’s not so easy.
Saint George of Lydda was born in Cappadocia
now part of Turkey. He was a Roman soldier and Christian martyr. I believe his cult was introduced to England by returning Crusaders and adopted as patron saint of England in the reign of Edward 3rd. Chosen because of his chilvalry, courage and charity. So not at all English he was a foreigner. Ironic.
Didn’t Fa***e try and frighten us all in 2016 with the prospect of 70,000 of St. George’s compatriots “flooding” our sceptered isle(s), unless we left the EU pronto?
I thought it was many more noughts than that
Hoist a different flag, one that reflects your values…?
I flew into Washington DC, where I was living at the time, a couple of days after 9\11. It seemed that every house had a flag; and whilst this was more common practice in the US than I was used to, it was a shock. I lived at the time in a lefty neighbourhood in a house that we ran as an international group house; I had a UN flag, so we hoisted that. Lots of houses flew the Rainbow Flag; some an EU flag and the odd national flag.
The atmosphere was hard to describe – it was fizzing with fear and uncertainty, and the flags seemed more a statement of collective solidarity in response to confusion than of hate (that came later). 9\11 came out of the blue, and the situation was different – but were I in the UK now, that’s my suggestion. Don’t just sit there pretending nothing is awry – fly something. Say your piece, give your response. A dove. A multicoloured family holding hands. Something you believe in.
I think that an interesting. It creates a solution focus.
Let me think about that.
Great suggestion Joanna.
Here in Yorkshire it’s not uncommon to see a Yorkshire flag in people’s gardens and public spaces – light blue ground with the white rose symbol.
It become popular during the Tour de Yorkshire cycle race and has been taken up with typical independent Yorkshire pride ever since.
(Sadly the butcher’s apron still abounds, but they are getting more and more tatty and tired year by year hahaha)
With the organiser’s claim that this action isn’t racist and that other ethnicities are involved I find myself wondering whether this isn’t another tactic imported into the UK far right from their Trumpist brethren across the Atlantic. By this I mean that it’s been known for several months now that Trump’s ICE is keen to recruit first and second generation immigrants to then be in the forefront of taking action in the “war” they are currently waging against the largely – but by no means exclusively – hispanic population. My understanding is that the rationale for this is two fold. First, it makes what’s obviously a racially inspired policy look much less so if all the enforcers are not white (i.e. ICE is not then made up largely of white nationalists or sympathisers. Second, it turns immigrant against immigrant – always a go to policy of fascists and their rich backers/controllers. It’s the age old ‘divide and rule’ tactic used by the rich and their minions against the working class in the UK and around the world for centuries now. Sadly, the working class always fall for it, given the various mechanisms used to convince them that they do, in fact, have more in common with the rich bastards who are exploiting them, than the worker of another colour/ethnicity/location/industry whose being shat on by the rich and their minions.
Just to add, that I’ll add another comment shortly. I actually wrote it in response to a blog from you earlier in the week but was unable to post it at the time. Luckily I copied the text into an email so I still have it. I think much of what I say in it is relevant to a discussion of the English flag.
Thanks
And much to agree with.
So, Scotland flag = Good. Wales flag = Good. Presumably the flag of India, France, Spain, Argentina, Nigeria, indeed just about every other country in the world = Good.
Let me guess. England flag =-Bad. (probably American flag = Bad as well).
Every country has good and bad bits in it’s history. Every other country is allowed to celebrate to good bits and be proud of them, without forgetting the bad bits.
But somehow that isn’t allowed for the English.
You feel ‘threatened’ by people proud to be English? Having had a life here of comfort and success, having enjoyed the fruits of all that England has had to offer? Where else would you have chosen to live? What country offered you more?
As George Orwell wrote “England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God Save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box.”
Now, you must excuse me, I’m off to buy a flag pole.
Why are you making up what I did not say?
Who cares whether this problem is to be found in any other country or not? I am writing about the very particular problems associated with the English flag, partly because of its association for centuries with oppression, and secondly because during my lifetime it has been captured, far too often, by the far right, and no one else, to be used as a symbol of continuing oppression of those who the groups in question wish to treat as the “others“ in society on whom they wish to pile blame for whatever condition it is that they think is wrong within the society in which they are living. I was not discussing a general issue. I was discussing a specific issue.
I explained very clearly how England can reclaim its dignity. Its history is decidedly uncomfortable, unless that is you are happy with a history based upon exploitation. I don’t hate the place. I really love it. I like living here. I could move. I have not done so. That’s my choice. But it doesn’t mean that I’m not offended by people who fly flags in a way that is intended to express their belief in the oppression of others, and you are denying that. I am not the problem. You are you are creating the divisions, and you are very obviously doing so deliberately, and taking pleasure from the fact. Why is that? Who gave you the license to abuse?
“during my lifetime it has been captured, far too often, by the far right”
Then why not take it back from them? If you don’t, they have won.
If your argument is that in the past seeing the English flag meant it was being flown by the ‘far-right’, why not fly the flag everywhere?
People then have a choice – do as you are doing and assume that everyone flying it must also be from the ‘far right’. Or have an open mind.
“people who fly flags in a way that is intended to express their belief in the oppression of others”
What do you know of the beliefs of those currently flying the flag? Have you spoken to them all? To any of them? Asked them what their beliefs are?
You seem to be entirely missing the point. Whether that is deliberate or not, I do not know. But if you do not understand that simply flying a flag does not reclaim it, but does in fact reinforce the message that it currently delivers, then you very clearly are not understanding my arguments. If I put up an England flag right now the only message that I would convey to anybody in my community is that I stand with the far right. That is it. And there is nobody who could miss the point, you included. So politely, stop wasting my time. This is not a place for stupid fascists.
Terry. I think I might pass a one of Orwell’s ‘intellectuals’, given my years as an academic. And certainly I’d be classed as ‘left wing.’ And I can also say from research into my family history that I’m about as English as it’s possible to be. Over the years I’ve known many other ‘intellectual’ who are left wing, and solidly English – and, like me, they expressed that fact by preferring to refer to themselves as English, before British – just as most Welsh and Scots do. I can also confidently say that, again, like me, none of them ever felt ‘disgraceful’ at being an English.
However, that’s not to say that I haven’t been sorely disappointed, or indeed extremely pissed off, by some of the behaviour that some of my fellow Englanders exhibit in the name of “being English”. For example, the hooliganism that used to be a stock component of England’s football matches against any other nation. The outrageous lies and distortions about the EU that were widely and knowingly circulated for years to the detriment of our position in Europe and other European people – and finally the UK through our exit from the EU. And the constant harping on about things that we’re supposed to be exceptional at (or were), when in fact many other nations and peoples have much the same history and “claims to fame”, and we have much more in common with than we ever think.
They’re just a few examples. But perhaps the worst of all – for me, at least – is that so many working and middle class (to use two old labels) English people in this country have, over centuries, been so easily led and/or convinced by the rich (initially land owners) into fighting against each other, when in fact they are not enemies, but, by so doing, deflect attention away from the true root cause of their issues – the level of inequality that has almost always been the bane of people’s lives. Then again, perhaps that’s a trait of Anglo Saxons, as many of the countries that were once under English/British control/influence exhibit much the same behaviour (e.g. the USA).
Thanks, Ivan.
@ Terry Mansfield
There are many people here who can give you helpful advice on siting your new flagpole, so you can stand straight, tall and proud as an Englishman.
🙂
Why not, as the Scots have showed (don’t we always- tee hee) just have one flag for patriotic occasions and another for the more serious (as in war)?
The Saltire, or Flag of St. Andrew, is our happy-clappy flag.
The Lion Rampant is our serious, fighting-flag.
Why not get a committee together and list all those “good” parts of England and then incorporate them in your flag?
At least it would save all those upside-down butcher’s aprons for military-parades etc? Just a thought?
Fair enough you clearly hate England and its history. But that view is not shared by others. Why cant you just respect that and let them live their lives as they wish as they do you?
Why are you making up what I did not say?
I explained very clearly how England can reclaim its dignity. Its history is decidedly uncomfortable, unless that is you are happy with a history based upon exploitation. I don’t hate the place. I really love it. I like living here. I could move. I have not done so. That’s my choice. But it doesn’t mean that I’m not offended by people who fly flags in a way that is intended to express their belief in the oppression of others, and you are denying that. I am not the problem. You are you are creating the divisions.
Your arrogance is astounding – we don’t need your advice on ‘How England can reclaim its dignity’ – It doesn’t need to do any such thing.
Just as you would encourage others to welcome the flags and cultures of immigrants to this country, you should also encourage the English to celebrate their own cultures and history, regardless of whether you agree with all of it or not.
In any case, I thought you were in favour of an independent Scotland? That’s hardly conducive to an inclusive environment?
I have made it abundantly clear that I would love for the flag of England to be associated with things that are positive. I may clear why it is not. I know that what I have said is the opinion of a majority of people in this country. Those who wish to fly the flag are doing so deliberately to act as in the front to those to whom they know it will be offensive. What is it about that that you do not understand, and why are you so keen on causing offence?
In reply to James Peachey (brilliant name!),
Scotland has been a nation since the mid 9th century.
The two crowns of England and Scotland were bestowed on a single king, in 1603 BUT the nations remained separate and distinct.
A political -ahem “union” was foisted upon Scots by England in 1706-7.
There is absolutely nothing, NOTHING “inclusive” in the current situation; union. It was, is and always will be about exploitation of the colonies, the indigenous populations, their resources, that were once controlled by……answers can be sent to “Which country has ruled a quarter of those on the planet and made a complete Horlicks of being kicked-out/leaving every single one of them” competition, London SW1A 0AA.
And before anyone claims “Britain”, see above!
You mention that as a nation we define ourselves by our defeat of fascism in the WW2. And that because like millions of people over 50, we had parents who were born in or not long after the war, and had grandparents who participated in it, we grew up hearing stories of the war, rationing, etc, and we heard all about Hitler and Nazi’s and so on. But that’s not what people have grown up hearing and learning about for years now. Furthermore, when we routinely gorge ourselves on documentaries, films, parades, etc related to WW2, it’s on a subject that has absolutely no relevance to any younger person (I have six grandchildren ranging from 20 down to 6 and none show any interest, and that isn’t because they’ve no interest in history).
It will be argued that our endless celebration of the successes of WW2 (WW1) are done out of respect for brave participants in that conflict and the relatives who still respect their memories. But the participants are few in number now. So it seems to me that the underlying purpose is now much more about the symbolism of the parades and thus to continue to cement the politics of English/British exceptionalism, and appeal to little Englanders (ex Brexit, now mostly Reform supporters?), who still cling to the days of the British Empire. And I have to say, that if we put half the effort (and money) that we spend on these events into solving problems that matter to younger people we’d be a damn sight better off as a nation than we are now.
Apologies if that offends anyone, but that’s my view: As a country we’re stuck in a time warp “of greatness” that simply isn’t the case and certainly isn’t the reality for anyone – apart from the rich – who live in the UK today. And we should have broken out of it years ago. And that’s why any attempt to stir interest in the new fascism by reference to WW2 is a waste of time. It may well be correct that ‘history repeats itself’ but we have to find a far better way of presenting the dangers of the new fascism than reverting to talking about what a great role this country played in fighting Nazism 80 years and more ago.
much to agree with.
To add a little to this, often those who actually fought in the wars did NOT wish to extol war or glory in nationalism. It’s a peculiar peccadillo of those who DIDN’T fight. My father was born in 1890 – he was a lot older than my mother – and served in World War 1. He was virulently anti-nationalist and saw both patriotism and nationalism as divisive evils – he had, after all, witnessed the effects of the rampant nationalism that led towards the devastation that was World War 1. He refused to stand for the National Anthem and rose with speed to turn it off last thing at night on TV, where it was played according to custom as some may recall. My uncle served in World War 2 and was similarly unexcited about nationalist symbols or aspirations. Perhaps it is our ignorance of what I might call “real” grounded history that leads us towards bigotry and division. We have no idea what we really stand for and opt instead for the meretricious, where we are easily seduced by rogues.
Much to agree with. I recall none of the current enthusiasm and jingoism about war in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Too many people remembered it.
Thanks for highlighting this. As one who was born and raised in Brum but has been for most of my life been an economic migrant in the south east, this news really depressed me. I frequently go back home and the stories about these flags in the press and last night’s BBC Midlands Today just do not accord with my experience of my fellow Brummies. It also reminds me of the wonderful lyrics of the song “My Country Too” by the Oysterband written following the Brexit referendum result:
Woke up today in a strange, strange land,
So many things I didn’t understand,
Why they fight old wars that ended 70 years ago,
Gonna close the borders – it’s a magic spell,
And all the dirty jobs, gonna do themselves,
It’s my country too and I want it back,
Where I live, it’s not like this,
We don’t blame souls that good luck missed,
Like being out of work deserves hard times,
Being sick’s a trick, being poor’s a crime,
We don’t deal with rape by putting women down,
We don’t guard our land by letting children drown,
It’s my country too and I want it back,
The land I choose, the land we made,
This land I love, it’s not afraid,
There’s room on board for the odd, the queer,
The Roundhead and the cavalier,
The refugee and the welcome stranger,
The dreamer, the rebel and every game changer,
It’s my country too and I want it back!
It’s time to fight back against the flag waving plastic patriots. We deserve better than the likes of Farage, Cooper and Badenoch.
So much to agree with
I came across another song with the same title, by an American, Dan Bern, which includes the lines:
But you won’t find a flag on my doorstep
On the fourth of July
Too many criminals try to wrap themselves inside of it
It stands for too many lies
… and reminded me of a feeling from when living there a good while back, when every so often the Americans would go all all patriotic,speechifying and flag waving, that this was a bit off putting, that any country which felt the need to talk itself up, to itself, had a bit of a self confidence problem.
I’ve always been very uncomfortable with flags. I regard them as symbols of separation and division. I view them purely as a mechanism to rally emotional support for the power of one group over another.
In the 1970’s the only place you encountered the St.George’s Cross was on Anglican Church Towers.
I still remember the Enlish hordes at Hampden Park and Wembley with their Union Jack.
(Scots were little better The Lion Rampant of Scotland, a symbol of the Scottish monarchy, likely originated during the reign of William the Lion (1143-1214) on some royal banners and flags used in battle.)
Slowly as Scots adapted to the Soltire, the Union Jack was replaced by the George’sCross, and just 3 Lions.
Sadly, all patriots assume the flag, but some are really just scoudrels.
Totally agree with the point you make regarding the England football team. Footage from the 1966 world cup final shows hundreds of union (Jack) flags, not a St George’s cross in sight. Even as late as the early 1990s it was mainly union flags. I think the St George’s Cross became more prominent among England supporters during the euro ’96 tournament which was hosted by England.
Agree
These are times of plastic patriots, who are dividing and ruling, fascism wrapped up in a flag- appealing to the those with authoritarian traits, who need flags, a strong armed leader who promises restoration of their lost status.
The flag doesn’t unite because it triggers threat for some groups within and outwith the UK.
St George was an adopted warrior saint who came from Turkey. You couldn’t make it up!
Nothing to do with England everything to do with Norman colonisation and legitimacy of crusades – Middle Ages’ culture wars. Perhaps why England hasn’t got a stable culture. It is an oppressed nation, whose culture was continuing the French Norman
colonisation project.
…majority of land taken by the Normans is still in the same family lines.
As a Scot, you articulate my thoughts really well, thanks. These people never seem to question why the Saltire, or even English county flags don’t evoke the same feelings of unease in people as the Cross. There’s nothing implicitly wrong with being proud of your heritage (with exceptions), but symbols have historical baggage which can’t be avoided.
Precisely
Exactly, it’s been a colonisation project since 1066.
England was not a construct for a long time, it was a minority ruling French Norman province, the so called English kings and queens spoke French and preferred to be buried in France.
This was, of course, common place for centuries.
And then, for a while, we went for German speaking Kings instead.
Last time I saw flags on every lamp post was Belfast in the 1980/90ss. Which flag (Irish tricolour, Union flag/cross of St George with a red hand) depended on which part of the city. Came with murals colour-coded kerbstones, petrol bombs and police stations with blast walls. Not pretty. Divisiveness not inclusion.
Your last comment is, of course, the point that I am seeking to make. That is what flags are about in this case.
Still happens in some bits with union flags, Ulster Flags and red/white/blue curbstones but significantly less than maybe 10, or so, years ago.
The flags on lampposts is maybe copying NI.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/inflammatory-flags-and-painted-kerbs-appear-at-new-ni-housing-development/a1952994192.html
https://qpol.qub.ac.uk/bonfires-flags-identity-cultural-traditions/
Also, the flag they’re flying is the flag of Genoa, English ships in the med sailed under the flag of Genoa in the 13thC and it was adopted as the English flag after that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/05/england-owes-arrears-over-st-georges-cross-claims-genoa-mayor
At least the Ulster Flag is a unique version of a St George’s cross, though that’s about the only positive thing about it
@ RobertB,
The flag of Ulster, the one representing the entire 9 county province, is not the same as the flag of Northern Ireland:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ulster&ved=2ahUKEwjptcv0m52PAxXB-AIHHfHsJ6cQFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0h0rzwLEEzQnUrwQCRg1D2
I once tried to explain Ireland & the UK to a Bulgarian friend (we’d been discussing the region of “Macedonia” – a touchy subject where he lived in S W Bulgaria near the Greek, Turkish and Macedonian borders).
By the time we’d covered
The UK the state
The British Isles
Great Britain the island
Ireland the island
Eire the state
Northern Ireland the UK province
Ulster the nine county Ireland province
Ulster -“the “six counties”
– and the fact that the most northerly part of the island of Ireland is in “the south” we were both suitably confused, and decided to leave Scottish and Welsh history to another day. We didn’t do flags.
I started primary school in the late 1950s, in Jordanstoun NI, as my RAF dad was posted there. I remember him telling me about how scary he found the B Specials, when he encountered them, even though he was a Protestant RAF Officer born in N Wales. He hated bigotry.
@Drew Anderson
“The Ulster Banner, or the Ulster flag, as it is more often referred to,
became the flag that symbolised loyalist discontent. ”
from FLAGS: TOWARDS A NEW UNDERSTANDING, Paul Nolan, Dominic Bryan, Institute of Irish Studies 2016
but also sometimes The Ulster Banner Flag, as in the newspaper article I Linked to
In Public Forms of Memorialisation to the Victims of the Northern Irish Troubles in the City of Belfast by Elisabetta Viggiani (2006), Queen’s University of Belfast, both flags are called “Ulster Flag”
ULSTER (Province, 9 Counties) FLAG: red cross on a yellow field. Red Hand of Ulster enclosed in a white shield in the centre.
ULSTER (Government of Northern Ireland, 6 Counties) FLAG: red cross on a white field. Red Hand of Ulster enclosed within a Star of David positioned in the centre under a crown.
I am proud to be English (but not in that blinkered right wing way). My family is from southern England as far back as we can trace, deeply rooted in land based occupations until the twentieth century. England has an incredible history of waves of immigration, invaders, and explorers right back to the dawn of human time, and a wealth of myths, legends, and stories. I’ve been actively involved with English traditional music and dance for over 40 years and everyone, whatever their origin, is welcome in that world. However I cannot express this pride in my country and its traditions these days for fear of being thought some right wing nutter. Extremists have taken that away from us.
Agreed. That is our loss, but there are communities within England who do manage to still maintain their heritage. For example, I like the Northumbrian folk tradition.
I see myself as English as I was born and live in England but I also see myself as British as we are a part of the UK (can’t describe myself as UKish) and European as we are part of the continent of Europe (and yes, I want to be in the EU).
I was born in Kent, raised in the Midlands, went to University in the NorthWest of England, worked in London initially and now work work and live in the NorthWest of England. So, am I a Northerner, a Southerner, a Midlander? Maybe I’m just flexible 😉
There are also many other ‘groups’ I am part of due to my hobbies and interests so, there are many ‘labels’ that can be applied to me.
A flag doesn’t make you a good person. It is how you conduct yourself, how you treat others, how you live your life etc. that will determine that.
Craig
P.S. Still below the word limit 😉
🙂
BBC have been highlighting migration, how many thousands of boats have crossed – this year, since the election etc etc everyday for a whole month – and now the pile on following the ‘asylum hotels’ debacle.
Flags are another issue the far right have boosted – ‘we cant fly our own flag in our own country’ etc etc and its now entangled with the ‘demonstrations’ outside hotels.
As John Harris noted in the Guardian, Farage Badenoch Jenrick have been ‘fearing’ – ie egging on – riots outside hotels the whole summer. Such incitement should be a criminal offence for a leading politician .
Flags and or immigrants are a good way to fill up the public debate space so we are not talking about genocide or the corrupt money flooding our politics or the not very stealthy privatisation of the NHS.
If you engage with the flags issue – maybe playing into their hands – a bit like the ‘provocateur’ algorithms in social media encouraging disputation.
‘When fascism arrives it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross’
Correct.
One of the best examples of “great flag, wrong use” is the display of the Irish tricolour by the Green Brigade at the Celtic Park football ground in Glasgow.
In Ireland, this superb flag uses its middle white band to symbolise peace between the Catholic green and Protestant orange factions.
At Celtic Park, it is hijacked by bigotry.
In the Northern Ireland where I grew up, it was a criminal offence to display the Irish flag. Despite the fact that a significant proportion of the population wished to live in a United Ireland under that flag. The Union Jack was used for a display of triumphalist bigotry. It has left me with a lasting dislike of flag-waving.
That Act was repealed in 1987.
What Act would you repeal to enable the Union Jack to be associated with greater net positive aspects of nationalism of this country you choose to live in. I can think of a few.
I have always regarded myself as a British European. To the extent that I felt I had an English identity it was regional, based around the northern home of my birth and the East Midlands regional city known for its diverse population where I have happily spent most of my adult life. So I knew pretty clearly how I felt about the Scottish Referendum and the Brexit referendum. 2016 was a body blow which deprived me of the European citizenship I felt would always be mine, even though I could still feel part of a larger entity called Britain, thanks to the result of the Scottish referendum. But Brexit I feel has not just weakened our ties with Europe it has weakened the ties between the nations of the UK. I cannot blame the Scots and the Welsh for wanting to go their own way and realise their own national identity within a wider European framework, but where does that leave us the English? What am I now if not English and what does that mean? I think a lot of people are thinking that and looking for symbols of national identity. I wish it were not so, but I think condemning people for wanting a flag of their own risks pushing them towards the right, who are looking to stir up any grievance they can find. Farage has robbed me of my European citizenship. I will be damned if I will let him define me as an English woman, so I think the left have to do all we can to reclaim the flag and try to purge it of its association with nasty xenophobic nationalism. Don’t ask me how, though.
Much to agree with.
Ironically, I think the best way to kick start the laundering of the George Cross would be to grant us the independence we’ve clearly asked for, and show that England has grown up. I hope that last bit doesn’t offend anyone, as it’s not meant to.
Sheila,
“Farage has robbed me of my European citizenship. I will be damned if I will let him define me as an English woman…”.
Most of my posts are flippant. For this one, I would seriously say you should proudly declare that you’re English? Because you represent the “other” England. The kind, compassionate, fair-play seeking England that has been under attack from those that wish to do so, for their own agendas. Please don’t let them succeed?
Farage & co also robbed the Celtic Countries of their European citizenship too…even those who voted against them!
My first impression on seeing these flags, which are fairly common in certain parts of the North East, is to feel sorry for the people who feel the need to fly them.
Diminished responsibility, it seems to me.
I get the sinister aspect of these flags proliferating all over the place; we could easily see a lot more over the coming weeks. It’s difficult for any authorities or concerned citizens to deal with. I don’t want to treat flags flyers with contempt, just pity the poor buggers who’ve had their brains so slowly cooked by the media and a few charlatans that they are close to bashing their own heads with frying pans.
I’d like to reason them out of their behaviour, but they didn’t reason themselves into it.
Not my circus, not my monkeys.
Interesting discussion. A point I’d like to make is that far right activists or English fascists if you prefer need to be mindful of the fact that the institutions they wish to create may turn against them. The same happened to Jewish fascists In Mussolini’s Italy: they were eventually expelled from the party and the ensuing horrors are well documented.
The irony of right-wing racists using the flag of St George is astonishing. After all, George was a middle-eastern gentleman, just the sort of person these bigots are raging against.
[…] interesting comment did come in this morning, though, from a commentator called Joanna, who said, and I have edited […]
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2025/08/21/my-unease-with-flags/comment-page-1/#comment-1038996
You are correct, it was 70m, not 70k. An even bigger lie from the grifting ex-City metal-trader, Trump-supporting fascist liar-in-chief Fa***e.
“Unlike the dragon of Wales or the saltire of Scotland, the English flag was entwined with empire and domination.”
This is simply untrue. It wasn’t the flag of St George that flew from ships or government buildings in the colonies – it was the Union Jack.
You also completely ignore the fact that the Scots to a quite extraordinary degree were disproportionately represented in the governing body and military apparatus of the British Empire. Modern Canada was basically was founded by Scots – the settlers, politicians, bankers. They also had plenty of involvement in the settlement of Aus and NZ – particularly the S Island of NZ. There’s statues everywhere of Scots in ANZ.
Not to mention the role of the Scots in the plantation of Ulster…
But the legacy is all focussed on England and you are ignoring that
An excellent piece Richard. ..and that’s coming from a Scot with the Saltire flying in the garden..waiting for independence.
From my perspective I always thought of the St George flag as representing the English people. The Union flag to me represented the peoples of this island coming together to fight a common enemy as in the two World Wars. The soldiers became ‘British’ and fought for these islands under the Union Flag.
However the present ‘English’ government seem to have commandeered the union flag and by association seem to have used it as a weapon to represent their power over the other nations on this island. Then I saw on the news the St George flag being torn down by english council workers..as ‘too divisive.’ I am now totally confused. The problem seems to emanate from an ‘english ‘ government who have lost the plot. And the rest of us want to escape from them.
Be prepared to be attacked for your article which from my perspective opens up a can of worms. You are very brave!
There are many of us in England who are alienated by the flag of St George – more, probably than who embrace it in any way for the reasons I have noted.
https://anotherangryvoice.substack.com/p/the-culture-war-has-reached-a-whole
Bizarre….
The origin of flags were to be an insignia of the people you were fighting for. Not the indidivual people. Thus you had the Persian Army in history all under one banner, but there were many races in that army. Why do we think it’s bad to fly the flag of England. It was hijacked by the far right, not the other way round. We are all individuals in our own right, whatever colour or race we are. I was brought up in the sixties and I learned to have no bias at all. But I do hate dishonesty. My father fought in the war, along with the help of many other races and colours, to obtain freedom for ourselves and future. Do we want to that be for nothing, all those people died for our freedom. I live in the South 73, and maybe facing eviction. Face the real world.
WW2 was not fought under the English flag.