Gary Stevenson put out a YouTube video yesterday in which he suggested that those who want to change the way in which our economy is working should be using social media to challenge the hierarchies of power in the UK because those in power are doing three things.
First, they are resisting change. He highlighted the fact that Labour is very definitely a part of this problem.
Second, they are using existing media to try to dismiss calls for change. Gary explained how incredibly bad most economic analysis on almost all broadcast and print media is, but when you listen to some of the interview that Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell conducted with him on The Rest is Politics, you can see how those in power in this sector are also using their influence to try to suppress alternative messaging, which they were most certainly trying to do with Gary. To say those two were patronising men, imbued with the privilege of wealth, trying to put down someone who they obviously see as an irritating working-class man who, in their opinion, does not know how to behave and who should just learn how to ask nicely, would be overly kind to them.
Thirdly, he suggested that he has growing confidence that if there are enough voices doing this, then we can change the political narrative.
He then suggested that his is not the only voice in this area, and he suggested two others in particular. One is the channel of a person who calls himself Jimmy the Giant, and the other one is me. Of me, he said:
So it's not just me. I think another guy who is really interesting in this country is an economist called Richard Murphy. He has a channel, I think it's called Economist Richard Murphy, something like that, anyway you can find it on YouTube.
And yeah, he's not your classic influencer type, but he's created this channel which talks about economics, aggrsssively talks about economics.
And you know, I don't know if he's in his 50s or 60s, you know, a grey-haired older gentleman talking in a slightly posher accept about economics, and this guy's got a quarter of a million subs on YouTube, right? And it shouldn't work. but it does work because, number one Richard works hard, incredibly hard, does a video every single day, which hats off to Richard for doing that, but also just because the demand is there.
Gary confirmed during the course of his post that he is talking to other people on social media.
I can confirm that we have been in discussion, but as yet, I do not know where this will go. I think it would be good if we debated each other, including on the points of difference that we have, which are not as significant as the points of common interest. Let's see what happens.
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An alliance of you and Gary is exactly what we need. I’m very familiar with his work and just read is book which is fascinating. He is a cult hero with young people. He’s an LSE Econ graduate but there’s no mention in his book or any of his videos of MMT. That would certainly be an area to explore in a debate.
I still hope you can interview Gary, I think his understanding of MMT could be improved.
I think it could be.
If this dialog leads anywhere, I hope Gary is open enough to new ideas to realise that some of his arguments are self-defeating e.g. pushing the mainstream view that UK govt debt is ‘unsustainable’ due to interest rates being too high. As he explains in his YouTube video “Is the UK government bankrupt?”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeH5UXYEzPE
He can be quite frustrating when he talks about the country almost being bankrupt. Also, I think he would benefit greatly from discussing the practicalities of wealth taxes with Richard.
Very much so. Gary tweeted this on MMT…
“This will anger some people, but I think MMT has confused many people .
Can u monetarily finance deficits? Yes
Can you do it in large size over a sustained period without causing inequality and inflation?
No”
If he has tackling the claim some supposed MMT supporters make that we can spend without worrying about limits, he is right
MMT enthusiasts can be its own worst enemy, after all
This needs clarification
That’s possible, but I think its much more likely Gary has fallen for straw-man framing of MMT from the like’s of BlackRock’s Larry Fink and former US Treasury Secretary Larry Summers:
MMT, is “garbage” (Fink)
“So I believe MMT is very much misguided, the premise that somehow you can always print enough money to cover all of your debts” (Summers)
MMT is “voodoo economics,” (Summers)
We need to talk about it.
Make this so!
I think you have a lot to add to Gary’s message. The notion of a wealth tax is dead right in principle, bit the devil is in the detail…
Waiting with baited breath for a collaboration between you too.
And agree 100% about Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell – they have no idea how real people live. It was embarrassing o watch. Kind of a Dunning-Kruger effect as they probably think they ‘won’ but have no idea how stupid they looked…
This is exactly the crossover episode we need
I stopped listening to Campbell and Stewart when their attitude to Scotland became apparent. Both are victims of the Westminster bubble and the belief that UK democracy and Thatcher’s neoliberalism is an inclusive success. Well it is. For them. I’d be staggered and amazed if they ever featured you in their podcast Richard.
So would I
The two of you could interview Ed Balls and Rory Stewart (separately). That would be fun – watching 2 people who understand economics demolishing those who tell patronising lies!
🙂
The MSM can promote or suppress a single voice by controlling exposure and framing. Much harder when those voices are on social media. Much harder when a large numbers of citizen become activist, which is what is required to change the narritive. Shortly after the never-give-in-til-it’s-over Lionesses won a third consecutive Euros, Your Party announce 500,000 sign-ups…in just three days. That’s hopeful.
That hope and youthful energy deserves a new party to emerge that will redefine what a political party can be in the UK. Decentralised, a progressive alliance that can collaborate with those of different political transition. One shaped democratically, bottom up and lead by warriors and not controllers. Charge requires turning the unseen and unheard into activists. And activism can simply be the conversations we have every day. Something the right have been better able to harnessed.
Trusted and committed people like you and Garry are providing the understanding of wealth inequality necessary to have those many conversations.
Wasn’t it second consecutive?
Correct. I had third consecutive final in my mind (World Cup 2023, when England lost to Spain) …over complicating and lost my train of thought.
🙂
Campbell and Stewart behaved in the same patronising fashion with Kate Raworth.
I did not see that one.
I am sure it is the case, and more so. She is a woman, after all.
This is welcome news – I hope more alliances can be built.
People are living in fear – fear to pay bills, more increases in water, electric, rents etc. Income is not even covering outgoings – people are treading water or living in debt.
Many who bought into the basics of life are just surviving in spite of their degrees, experiences etc if you are not in their wealth club it’s a poverty and fear.
I know you did a post recently about how the Government should be like a family, and this was 100 % correct in how you described it.
I don’t know how Gary managed to share a room with the mass-murdering war criminal Alistair Campbell without punching him in the face. It speaks very highly of his character 🙂
I think a debate between the two of you would be fascinating, informative and well worth watching. As you say, there is more in common between the two of you than there are differences.
And I think your combined efforts, knowledge and audience could be greater than the sum of the individual parts, considerable though they are.
Craig
Thanks
We follow you both, and listened to Gary’s latest last night, during which we thought Gary expressed some concerns about the current pace and his ability to meet the needs of this movement and our hopes were that you might help/support each other to keep the messaging coming. We really appreciate what you both do – thank you
Let’s see…
Would love to see this!
I was amazed at the content of Gary Stevenson’s latest video, as he has been emphasising that a tax on wealth is a very long-term project. He travelled in the summer, the comments on the video showed he has followers abroad beyond the Anglo-sphere. Now he’s saying we’re closer to success. I hope so.
Many comments mentioned you in a positive light, many asked Gary to communicate with you. I spent a few minutes responding to those who claimed you said a wealth tax would not work, pointing them to your report. But video comments are a mixed bag, compared to the quality of comments on your blog. I’m not sure people return to them after the moment. Jimmy the Giant was not commented upon so favourably.
Stevenson has reached a huge audience, but he does think his accent and background are a barrier. He is expending a lot of energy trying to speak with politicians and others. He has a very simple message. With your experience, and broader subject matter in your current output, I see you as potentially very powerful working together in some way. I don’t want a debate, that’s entertainment. I’d love to know you had sat together and talked, that’s step one. Just remember he drinks tea!
I think he is very smart, as passionate about inequality as you are, and that he needs to read your Taxing Wealth Report.
Inequality campaigners linking to each other, so those not yet on board see that people from different walks of life and generations are saying broadly the same thing, seems essential, as the internet favours the splitters over the bridge builders.
One comment below that video was a suggestion that we do a little A4 ‘ newsletter’ and deliver 50 copies to our nearest neighbours. That got me thinking…. an antidote to the internet? The term ‘sapper’ was used – is this not military speak for engineers who build and repair bridges so that armies can move forward? I guess they also know how to destroy them…
I think I’m rambling off topic now so I’ll sign off.
I like that newsletter idea..
And I can tell you his team are reading the Taxing Wealth Report. He has a team…
Anne S,
I agree with what you say and too really like the idea of a newsletter which could have huge reach. Richard, I do think you and Gary could be a very powerful team, but rather than a debate (which suggests opposing contributions and potential conflict), I would rather a conversation between two very knowledgeable and experienced individuals. (More in common is a very important principle). I think it would be hugely beneficial to inject MMT into the discussion and would like to suggest that it is kept simple. As an older person who has come very recently to attempting to understand economics, I’m aware that whilst I have the time and interest to read a lot on the subject, (but can get lost in the detail at times on here!) my friends and family don’t necessarily read lengthier blogs/articles etc. I’m very interested to see how this pans out, good luck!
Thanks
I would prefer a converation
I must mail Steve Keen as well
I would certainly be intrigued to hear a debate between Gary and Richard on taxing wealth, particularly as my knowledge of econcomics is only at the Rachel Reeves level.
“it is fundamentally mentally unhealthy not to care about the broad health of the society you live in” says Gary
Among all the economic policy measures is a golden nugget of psychological and spiritual wisdom
It’s a point we have in common: we care about mental health.
agreed, to me he squarely had the cult of individualism in his sights with that comment.
Richard, Just watched my first Jimmy the Giant YouTube video on How the Elite Engineered Britain’s Collapse (And Blamed You). It is very engaging. A brilliant antidote to the rubbish appearing on the MSM. I recommend it if you have forty minutes to spare. I will certainly dig into more of them. It illustrates just how powerful social media can be. I may be wrong but I detected a sort of echo to the Horrible History books and their style which got my children interested in history when they were at school.
I have looked at one, and it is very good.
Martin, thanks for that shout out for Jimmy the Giant. I have just watched that video. I left school after A levels in 1970 and got a job on the local Borough Library. I was so busy ‘doing life’, adult learning, voluntary work, hobbies etc. this all passed me by. It is quite disturbing to me now to understand so much of the world order was changing largely unnoticed by my generation. I consider I had a good grammar school education – enjoyed the subjects – read newspapers, watched at least some of the more serious tv on offer – but now realise I was no way equipped to recognise what was happening. I presume maybe because it was deliberate policy to pull the wool over our collective eyes? Let us hope that in these days of fragmented sources of news that the following generations cannot be so soundly fooled?
He is good
And thank you for your comment.
I’d love to see a conversation with Gary. A coordinated effort might be the way to go to challenge these economic myths. It’s like living in a cult, but once you see the truth, you can’t unsee it.
Let’s see what happens….
Well said Gary.
And this has made my day, the prospect of you and Gary in dialogue, brilliant
Building collaboration and interconnected network of peaceful resistance to TINA lies. Fantastic!
It has not happened as yet
Hi Richard,
I have added my voice in the comments on Gary’s economics regarding debating MMT with you. Personally I think it would be of huge interest to many thousands of people. Hope it happens.
Thanks
I would welcome a conversation between you and Gary. I do my best to follow the discussions here, but do get a little lost sometimes. I follow Gary and learn a great deal from both of your educative videos. I was recently encouraged, when standing at a lurecoursing (whippets) meeting, in middle England, talking to a couple from Scotland who also follow you. Think we need to carry on talking, sharing these values and linking people to your respective blogs.
Thank you for all your hard work, much appreciated.
Thanks, Anne.
Let’s hope this happens.
At the end of one of their episodes last week, Stewart asked Campbell what he thought of Gary Stevenson and he had a bit of a go at him, at least that what it sounded like to me, because on Stevenson’s Instagram profile it says something like “Lots of people have ideas, but mine are all right” and because he referred to Gary mania when he spoke to Campbell and Stewart. Campbell thought he should show more humility. Anyway, Campbell did say that he had some very interesting ideas, a big following among the young and if he were a serving politician he would definitely engage with him.
Regarding teaming up with Gary Stevenson etc. I know this is going against the grain and I can’t give any reasons but my gut feeling is, not yet
What is the disadvantage?
I can’t see and any specific disadvantages but I do know passionate people can easily fall out. Which would be disastrous. I just think slowly slowly and together establish clear objectives, a strategy and build a strong and solid foundation that will start to bring about real change.
That would be the goal, in my mind.
Also Gary’s YouTube video entitled “Is the UK government bankrupt?” is very confused.
He thinks UK govt’s debt is “unsustainable” (due to high interest rates). Is completely stuck in the ‘borrowing’ paradigm of bonds.
Video here… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeH5UXYEzPE
In an email received today, from the Peace and Justice Project (a Corbyn venture), Stephanie Kelton is listed as a speaker at their first annual conference in September.
I find that encouraging.
Yes
Stevenson is imbued with the household budgeting currency user model because that is the environment he worked in that allowed him to create his financial wealth. I have never heard him express anything that makes me think that he appreciates that fiat creation and destruction is as per an MMT/double entry bookkeeping understanding with money creation coming out of spending into existence.
Fiat money creation and banking’s credit advance money creation are analogous yet there seems to be some form of cognitive barrier for folks who have been immersed in and indoctrinated by the constancy of the corporate media, orthodox economists’ and politicians’ wails about, say, a need to reduce the public deficit.
Breaking that barrier in Gary Stevensons’s thinking would be essential if you are to work together on changing macroeconomics.
I think that is an issue.
But, let’s see.
Also my observations
At a time when “orthodox” economics can be seen to have failed at a practical level, and the “find a scapegoat”(immigrantts, small boats, disabled people, benefit claimants) arguments also look increasingly threadbare, and new political parties look like launching, we are at a point of opportunity – great opportunity.
So those of us looking for real change have to be ready to listen, to associate, and to make new alliances, sometimes strategic and temporary – to get the most urgent changes as quickly as possible.
I have a list of manifesto items as long as my arm but three urgent priorities which govern who I would vote for and engage with between now and 2029 p(if we get that long).
1. PR
2. MMT
3. Electoral pact to achieve 1 & 2 by strategic voting
Then the hard work starts.
If we miss the opportunity to disempower the neoliberal crooks who have been wrecking our lives, for the sake of preserving our particular ideological preferences, then we deserve 50 years of Reform UK Ltd.
But our neighbours don’t deserve it.
Thanks