Trump and Zelenskyy have fallen out, quite emphatically.
The blame has to, very clearly, fall on Trump and Vance.
Diplomacy has never looked like this, because this was not about diplomacy. It was all about thuggery from those two, in my opinion. And it was all about Trump, the Russian agent, trying to undermine peace in the most extraordinary fashion as far as I could see.
Even Sky News is asking whether this was all staged, deliberately by Trump and Vance, with the implication that Trump lied and that - as they have explicitly stated - Zelenskyy told the truth throughout.
What happens now, I do not know. No one does.
What I do know is that yesterday Kier Starmer was all smiles with this man, inviting him to the UK for a state visit. My sincere hope is that this is now withdrawn. A man like Trump has no entitlement to anything like that.
The world is in a dangerous place tonight.
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Just watching, my heart was, racing, I have never, in all my life seen anything so disgraceful as this. Zelensky speaks English quite well. But in this situation, Mango & beardy ganged up on him. A pair of fucking cowardly bullies. This was appaling and horrible. The only reasonable reaction would be for the Euros to go all in with Ukraine &… cut all ties with those bastard Americans.
Much to agree with.
Mike, you took the words right out of my mouth.
I’d read transcripts in the Guardian website but hearing it is even worse.
That is the most shameful thing I have ever seen in America since I’ve watched some of the McCarthy hearings. Unprecedented.
As soon as Trump mentioned Zelensky’s mode of dress which was straight off disrespectful, it was down hill from there.
The sound system also was biased towards Trump and that was very frustrating. And Vance – who the hell is he exactly?
This was Putin’s day for sure.
I thought that what Alistair Campbell said on C4 News was also probably the first time I’ve ever agreed with the man but it was spot on.
I still cannot believe what I’ve just seen; I still need to process it because the consequences are enormous.
Dear God, what did I just watch. That was horrifying. The red carpet is to be rolled out in the UK for that extortionist madman and traitor to his own country.
We are supposed to welcome that animal to our beautiful country, Scotland. No way!
I don’t support the English Labour Party in this. I don’t support Starmer or the rest of his cabinet. Withdraw the invitation to Balmoral/Dumfries House or wherever in Scotland. He can go to England – if England can bear to have him.
I stand with Ukraine, President Zelensky, and her people.
The blame here is all on Trump and Vance, who was used to set this up.
That was set up to show Putin that America is a good little autocratic partner. Russia’s/Putin’s long term investment – since the 80s – in Comrade Trump is paying off. Between them they’re breaking the western alliance.
Is Starmer going to continue to suck up to Trump knowing he’s Putin’s mouthpiece? I feel sick at the thought.
I am almost certain this was very deliberately staged.
Trump is sacrificing Ukraine to his ‘friend’ Putin.
Absolutely correct, Richard. It was a set up. Note that Vance wasn’t present when Trump had the sit down press conference with Macron. And note that it was Vance who jumped in with the allegation that ‘he’s seen’ Ukrainian men being ‘press ganged’ and dragged of the street to be forced to go and fight.
That’s a Russian propaganda trope complete with false footage, that I’ve seen via the OSINT people I follow. It appears routinely on right wing twitter accounts and You Tube, which is where Vance will have seen it. Basically it’s Ukrainian men who should have reported for service being duly arrested for not reporting for duty. And it’s exactly what happens in the US, UK and elsewhere if serving soldiers go AWOL. And let’s not forget that Trump got out of military service because a doctor falsely signed a document to say he suffered from ‘bone spurs’ in his feet (the said doctor later admitted he’d lied on Trump’s father’s behalf).
Anyway, utterly disgraceful behaviour but good to see ALL the EU leaders (apart from Hungary, Serbia and Slovakia) coming out and supporting Zelensky and Ukraine. So, far no sign of Starmer, though.
But yes, the invitation to Trump should and must be cancelled. To not do so leaves us clearly and categorically on the side of the Fascist leader of the US – who, it has to be said, would shit on the UK, as soon as it suits him, or anyone in Starmer’s government does anything to piss him off. Appeasement on a massive scale. If Starmer and his toadies can’t see that then they are morons of the first order.
Politics and politicians are already held in low esteem. Trump and co are destroying any semblance of what little respect some people may maintain, But if Starmer chooses the cowardly way out on this issue any respect that remains for politicians in this country is well and truly washed down the toilet. Sadly, I think that’s where Starmer will take things now.
Much to agree with
I feel immensely for Ukraine right now.
I am compelled to help Ukraine but no idea how to.
I am so ashamed to be British due to Starmer and the so called King for inviting this tyrant dictator to our country.
I feel that I have just witnessed history and it was not the sort I thought I would ever witness.
I pray tonight this is not the arch Duke of Austria type senario.
I just pray for that is all I have left to give. This is so emotionally draining it is causing me and my autism great mental distress.
my heart goes out to humanity.
To quote Avatar – Zelenskyy, tonight, I see you.
Much to agree with.
Thank you.
I host a Ukrainian family – we have donated all sorts to the Ukrainian military – money for vehicles, money for non-lethal tools. You want to donate? Richard has my details.
I’m still shaking with rage.
8:29pm okay world has gone mad it’s official. Pretty Nasty and Robert Jennick torry backstabbing ruthless heartless abhorrent specimens of humanity weasels have just released a not only poignant but logical and dare i say it eloquent statement in solidarity with Ukraine. Labour so called PRIME MINiSTER AWOL total utter silence.
That’s is world is bats@@t nuts I’m agreeing with a statement by Pretty Patel. I have a higher regard for tories tonight. There is another first.
I’m off to hide in a bottle of wine.
Trump and vance are nothing but Bullirs and our King should cancel the meeting with Trump he is as bad as Putin.The American people need to get rid ifbthis Fachist. TRUMP needs to gonand ho now .PUTIN will.be clapping his hands.God whst a Mess.
Hi Claire.
If you want to help in some way have a look Dmitri’s (War Translated) on BlueSky
https://bsky.app/profile/wartranslated.bsky.social
My wife and I donate regularly to the various fundraisers that Dmitri highlights. He has one running at the moment and links to others. All above board, despite regular attempts by Russian sympathisers to argue otherwise.
[…] What now after the quite extraordinary behaviour from Trump? […]
I watched it on BBC World and am still reeling. Totally and absolutely horrifying. I had few if any expectations, but this was far worse than my worst fears.
More words fail me right now, other than obviously agree with others above.
I am trying to work out a view for the morning
I have no right to be, (having no ‘skin in the game’) but I was so proud of Zelensky, who moved very quickly from looking apalled to offering a robust reply. I am glad he walked away, no other outcome was feasible. But I wonder what he was actually expecting when he arrived?
Was he unprepared? Is that a fair question?
It was a blatant pitch for a Nobel Peace Prize by someone who has no idea what it is for.
Zelensky was elected to deal with corruption and joining the EU. According to my Special Forces friend he doesn’t seem like the warrior type but he has moral strength. The war leader role was thrust upon him and he carried it for three years.
Of course the Nobel Committee are Swedish….
And that evil man childs finger is on the nuclear button .A chilling thought .I have 6 grandchildren……
That might have wiped the smug smiles from the Downing Street hobos after their Starmer Man was seen to ‘perform so well’ as Trumps little poodle on Thursday.
Macron, Tusk, Spain, and other Europe leaders who are coming to London this weekend have voiced support for Ukraine following the White House mafia dressing down of Zelensky..
Its wrecked the usual UK mantra that ‘we are the bridge’ between Europe and US’ , so will encourage the forming of a trans European strategy to support Ukraine.
The kernel of truth from Trump is that there has been no Euro strategy as to how to end the war , given that Ukraine will always be weaker than Russia. Unpalatable as it is, Europe should also have a diplomatic as well as a military strategy – which means talking to Russia even if through intermediaries, and/or the UN. Presumably the strategy overall is to make the war costly enough to Russia to encourage them to negotiate.
Even military analysts have said there was no real chance that Ukraine should join NATO.
We threw away lots of opportunities for peace when we helped loot Russia’s assets in the 1990’s and expanded NATO eastwards despite apparently having promised not to.
It will be interesting to see if Starmer will agree some kind of joint Euro statement of support for Ukraine – that Trump might not like . Don’t hold your breath.
Andrew, NATO as was is finished. That’s absolutely clear from the behaviour we’ve seen today.Because what Zelensky was subjected to is exactly what any other European leader will get if they ‘offend’ Trump (i.e. don’t kiss his ass). And they can’t avoid doing that now by supporting Ukraine.
Of course, NATO mark 2 could continue without the US. Or something under a new name,as it’s absolutely obvious that Trump intends the US to align with Russia – a totalitarian state and one that’s heading that way rapidly under Trump.
The question mark here now is, what do the Chinese do? Clearly there’s going to be no more negotiation over Ukraine between the US and Russia. Consequently, only China has the necessary leverage over Russia – and that’s far more than the US has. My guess is the Chinese have been watching what’s been happening these past two weeks with growing confidence. And after today’s show of petulance and bullying they are probably laughing their socks off.
Trump should read the ‘Art of War’ – but then he doesn’t read. But the Chinese do. As Sun Zhu says: ‘The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.’ I think we can safely say that from a Chinese perspective they’ve just won their war with the US without getting out of their chairs. And that’s all down to Trump – after only five weeks as President.
Much to agree with.
Wait to see what happens in Taiwan, but I think Trump has already conceded it.
I’m not a betting man, Richard, but I’d confidently bet £100 that China will do nothing about Taiwan in the foreseeable future (say two to three years). They’ll want to sit and watch Trump destroy the federal government, purge the army so that he can make it his own, and cancel the 2026 elections. By which time we may be on the cusp of a second American civil war. And all the time Taiwan’s isolation increases and China will be happy to let them stew in that before they finally decide to ‘come calling’. As the Art of War quotation I put up earlier says, why fight if you can defeat your enemy by other means. I’ve no love of the Chinese but I’m afraid they hold an excellent hand of cards right now, and I can’t see other than that’s going to get stronger. Ok, that really is it for this evening.
Agreed
You have added a timescale to my comment
It was nothing but a deliberate ambush by those American devils. I totally think this sabotage of Zelensky was all planned out!
Dreadful, dreadful, dreadful.
A very sad day
I thought I’d ask our old friend Chat GPT about it. I’ve posted the response on Trump’s Facebook Page. Well, you have to try, don’t you? Here it is:
There has been a major row in the Oval Office today between President Trump and Vice President Vance on one hand, and President Zelensky on the other. The key area of disagreement seems to be over the nature of guarantees to be provided by the USA. President Trump seems to think that the deal on minerals extraction will provide sufficient guarantees of American interest in Ukraine. President Zelensky, along with other European leaders, want to see something more specific in the form of security guarantees from the USA. What do you think President Trump needs to do to secure peace in Ukraine?
Reasoned for 4 seconds
To secure peace in Ukraine, President Trump would likely need to shift from a transactional approach based solely on economic concessions—like the deal on mineral extraction—to a more comprehensive security framework. Here are some elements that could form a more credible path to peace:
Provide Clear, Credible Security Guarantees:
Rather than implying that economic deals are sufficient, the U.S. could commit to explicit security assurances. This might involve formal commitments to Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, such as rapid military support in the event of renewed aggression, or enhanced cooperation within NATO frameworks. Security guarantees might also take the form of bilateral defense pacts or extended deterrence measures that reassure Ukrainian leadership and their European allies.
Integrate Economic and Security Components:
While the mineral rights deal could be one piece of the puzzle, it should be part of a broader package that includes military aid, joint training exercises, intelligence sharing, and clear timelines for de-escalation. This integrated approach would signal that American interests in the region are both economic and strategic.
Engage in Multilateral Diplomacy:
Building consensus among NATO allies and European partners is crucial. Trump would need to work through multilateral institutions to present a united front that combines U.S. security guarantees with coordinated European defense initiatives. This collaboration would lend additional credibility to any promises made and help ensure that any peace agreement is sustainable.
Address Underlying Security Concerns:
The U.S. must acknowledge and address Ukraine’s core security fears—namely, the risk of Russian aggression. Concrete measures, such as joint military exercises, stationing defensive assets in the region, or committing to a structured, long-term military assistance program, could help mitigate these concerns.
Transparent, Long-Term Commitment:
Security guarantees need to be backed by a long-term commitment rather than a one-off deal. Establishing clear protocols for military assistance, a robust monitoring mechanism, and timelines for review could help solidify trust. This would be more reassuring than a purely economic deal, which doesn’t necessarily translate into real-world protection on the battlefield.
In essence, while economic elements like mineral rights can be part of a broader strategy, they are unlikely to satisfy Ukrainian and European demands for real security. President Trump would need to commit to a balanced package that includes both strong, credible security guarantees and supportive economic measures to truly pave the way for peace in Ukraine.
Ivan,
Serbia is not in the EU!
Apologies. I should have written ‘European countries’ not the EU.
Yes but Serbia is very pro-Putin indeed, and the Balkans is another gunpowder keg waiting to go up.
A valuable lesson for world leaders and diplomats who don’t speak and fully understand the language of their host. Get your interpreter to do all the hard work, otherwise your host will run circles round you. President Zelensky, please remember this: Although your English is very good it was not down to the street level that bullies Trump and Vance used.
I think it was
I think it is but it would be a good tactic in future to say that they were going too fast for him to understand and insist on an interpreter. That would slow everything down and stop the verbal barrage. Another good tactic is not to answer until they’ve talked themselves to a standstill, take notes, and then answer each point that they made, summarising their incoherent rant.
Two quick final points, Richard, which you and others have probably already thought of.
First, a petition against Trumps visit – which would be signed by millions, I’m sure.
Second, the promise by millions of citizens of the UK that if Trump comes there will be mass protests the like of which you have never seen (to use a Trumpism).
Maybe I should put that petition up
I bet the government will not allow it
That petition is already doing the rounds. One small point on this, which seems to be being ignored. All this was started by a reporter (who I believe is Marjorie Taylor Greens’s boy friend) telling President Zelensky that he was being disrespectful to the USA by the way that he dressed when meeting Trump. It was then that the evil Vance jumped in to further inflame the situation. I wonder if that was a set up by those two, knowing that Trump would blow a gasket. No mention of the dress code for Mr Musk, either.
A petition is worth a try – it’s something we can all do and also write to our MPs.
Let’s see
The last thing the UK Government WANTS is a visit from Trump. There would be mass protests. Trump would go ballistic and a bad situation would get even worse.
I marched against the IRAQ war twice and I realised on the second go that all we were doing was providing an excuse for the massive security operation covering Blair and Bush.
I will however march against the Trump visit if I have to. Who does Trump think was with the American forces in IRAQ and Afghan – Putin ‘s boys.
I will march too
Like Ivan, I follow OSINT. I also regularly check pro-Putin accounts in Russia, along with various other sources.
I never, ever thought that I would live to see a U.S. President side with a Russia led by a KGB officer, which has illegally invaded another country on NATO’s borders. Until a few hours ago, I thought I’d exhausted my capacity for shock and outrage. Not so. Trump’s conduct was a bloody disgrace.
I’ve written a letter to the Guardian (again) which won’t get printed, but I couldn’t stop myself. Trump has discontinued all monitoring of Russian cyber attacks. That means ALL classified Five Eyes intelligence is potentially visible to Russia, and probably much of NATO’s classified int. Hence Russia potentially has the opportunity to examine NATO’s top secret plans in relation to Ukraine, and NATO’s defence of its Eastern borders. The Baltic States are now in NATO, because of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, so their plans are equally vulnerable. There is, therefore, the very real possibility that Putin will be emboldened to move further into Eastern Europe and towards the Baltic States (which he has always coveted) at a time that suits him. And Putin, if he does decide to do so, can presumably count on the U.S. not to intervene.
Still nothing from Starmer, whose posts on how wonderful the special relationship is are still taking pride of place. I expect he’s desperately looking for McSweeney to tell him what to say.
The much feted transatlantic alliance is dead, I’m afraid. The rest of Europe (minus Hungary, obvs) has chosen to stand by their commitments to Ukraine. To use an offensive military expression, it’s time for Keir “bridge between the U.S. and Europe” Starmer to shit or get off the pot.
We need to cancel the State Visit and prevent this mafia president from coming to this country It is shameful We need to have a major show of support for Ukraine
I’ve just watched the 4 minutes of the exchanges between Zelensky, Trump and Vance – it was appalling behaviour by Trump and Vance, shouting, interrupting all the time, throwing out falsehoods and threats. I am appalled. Trump does not deserve to come to the UK with that kind of behaviour. It shows he and Vance up as the bullies they are, very clearly.
In many ways today’s unedifying spectacle in the White House was the biggest indication yet of how far the USA and Russia have fallen from their former elevated positions in the world’s hierarchy. Russia is a shadow of it’s former self: like a feral dog searching for scraps in the boneyard of it’s former empire, and now the USA is following suit. It’s bullying of the Ukraine President live on TV was simply appalling! Do Trump and Vance realise just how weak and gutless they looked browbeating a man who is not by any measure comfortable communicating in the English language? Any American who was not appalled by their performance will soon find out the consequences of being led by asses such as these. It never ends well. We’ve seen it so many times in the past.
The next few decades should be interesting though: Europe taking on the mantle of the leader of the free world again and China taking the role of ‘bad guy’, (if they want it)? No reason why they should – but they usually do!
The immediate future is without doubt going to be one of uncertainty, bad economics and bad politics, fermented by the two former Cold War Warriors as they rapidly fall from Grace. The most important question for the medium term is going to be whether or not Trump can somehow engineer another victory in four years time and prolong the torture?
One thing’s for sure though: It’s never boring with Donald around. I wake up every day and look forward seeing the news. That’s not always been the case in life.
I am beginning to wonder whether Europe is at an undeclared economic state of war with the USA but doesn’t realise it.
We definitely don’t understand Trump and still think he’s bluffing. I think last night showed the reality of where we are and was a major wake-up call for European leaders.
It will be interesting to see what the US does about Canada.
In all honesty I am not sure that China wants war at all. We failed to understand Russia and look where that has got us?
China will keep its own counsel and continue to grapple with the internal problems and tensions created by its internal economic polices. My understanding is that China remains as concerned about war within its borders as much as without. I think China will continue to emphasise trade because it economic policies of internal growth depend on it.
And lets not forget the U.S. presence in the South China Sea. If Trump was true to his word, he’d be getting ready to close bases now and bring the money home. Does anyone see that happening? Has Trump been offering to surrender his bases in the UK? We’ll see.
To me it looked like a couple of wolves attacking a sheep.