I only very slightly apologise for the language in my headline. I can't do more, because I am beginning some accounting research on the liabilities of the water companies that are pumping raw effluent into rivers and the sea.
The urgency is high, so I was looking for some help. I am seeking estimates of the cost of, firstly, putting right damage already caused by these companies, and secondly, the cost to them of installing equipment that will prevent it happening again.
I already have the reports from Ofwat, the House of Commons Library and the House of Lords committee who looked at this issue ( which is the best source, so far). I can get their accounts easily enough. But, if anyone knows of NGO estimates (preferably with some workings) of these two figures might you let me know? I am struggling to find any that are of use.
Thanks.
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It’s a good question – I don’t know about anyone else but I’m thoroughly embarrassed to live in a Turd World Nation.
There is considerable support for nationalisation but it seems they have tens of billions in debts, while paying out massive profits. It seems borrowing to, indirectly, fund dividends.
If we were to nationalise I suppose the state would have to take over the debts. It looks like the state is being ripped off.
In the event of nationalisation the state could clear these debts simply by pressing buttons at the BofE and other places. I doubt this would be inflationary as the sort of people these debts are owed to aren’t the folk to be clamouring at Tesco with their newfound riches offering to pay more for fish fingers. The price of Mercs might go up (again!) but I doubt they’re in the inflation basket. What we’d need to give thought to is how much the state ought to be charging for what are essentials, light, heat, water, and these days we must include broadband too. We should be including banking but that’s a whole other story. In principle the state could provide these essentials for free but would that be wise? We don’t want people encouraged to leave the lights on all day and let the taps run (although one could make an argument for watering lawns freely as in a properly configured system the water would be returning to distribution points anyway). Perhaps no charge as such but rather a usage tax for gas, water and electricity, so industry wages/salaries and infrastructure paid for by govt creating money into the economy could be balanced out by taxation removing excess. I’m blue-skying here; anyone?
Bill you are right about the debt not being a problem as the state has more than enough funds to take over these unity companies. However as I understand it, they have compartmentalised the companies so much that putting them back together, once nationalised, would be akin to solving a jigsaw puzzle. If this is so, I am certain this was deliberate, for obvious reasons.
I have the data now
I will be looking at it over the next couple of weeks
Utility, not unity companies. Absurd spell checking.
Calculations and judgments needed for this plan .. perhaps an affordable necessary amount of essentials (water, power, broadband) could be provided by the state to each household, above this amount higher users pay a higher rate, Might curb overuse and richer households who are likely to use more pay more. Poorer households who use more for say health reasons have a larger initial allowance.
That is not the aim of my work
I am working on the cost of preventing pollution
Don’t know whether any of this helps
Domestic sewage treatment plant installation cost
https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/domestic-sewage-treatment-plant-installation-cost/
How Much Does It Cost to Install a Sewage Treatment Plant?
https://www.owlshall.co.uk/sewage-treatment/blog/knowledge-base/cost-sewage-install/
How much does a sewage treatment system cost to run?
https://www.direct-drainage.co.uk/blogs/sewage-treatment-systems-faqs/how-much-does-a-sewage-treatment-system-cost-to-run
Thanks
From a full costs analysis point of view…
It might be worth chatting to Geenpeace…….
How sewage got into UK rivers and seas, and how to fix it…
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/raw-sewage-discharge-water-pollution/
Adding to the cost might also involve insurance payouts…
Is There Compensation for Sewer Flooding?
https://www.wildonuk.co.uk/news/is-there-compensation-for-sewer-flooding/
And then we have the fines companies have to pay which add to the costs we may end up being charged…
Discharge of raw sewage lands firm in hot water…
Yorkshire Water has been fined £233,000 and ordered to pay £18,766.06 costs and £170 Victim Surcharge after it admitted to being responsible for a sewage leak that led to the deaths of hundreds of fish in Tong Beck, near Bradford.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/discharge-of-raw-sewage-lands-firm-in-hot-water
PS… you could have said effluence instead of shit 🙂
Thanks
And i could have done, but chose not to
Hi Richard,
If you are looking into liabilities of water companies – you can find how many fines have been handed to water companies on the Violation Tracker UK website: https://violationtrackeruk.goodjobsfirst.org/
We recently put some of the top water companies into a table, which you can find here: https://twitter.com/VT__UK/status/1626608228208353280?s=20
Any questions feel free to email me on the email above
Great work
Just followed you on Twitter
Will mail
I like what you’re going!
The last twenty years of my working life were spent as a Principal Mechanical Engineer with Southern Water, working on the capital works programme, ie new works and major refurbishments. I retired in 2007, so my knowledge is somewhat dated.
However, when I joined Southern water in 1987, the systems were pretty dire and most sewage works were operating to a very low standard. On small, rural works, the incoming sewage was course screened to remove solids, at the time 20mm bar spacing was considered fine screening. The course screens were manually raked when an operator was on site. Luckily, most rural works used the carousel, trickling filters to provide biological treatment, so most other solids were left on the top on the filter beds, rather than finding their way to the steam or river. After 1989 and privatisation, things changed dramatically, new automatic 6mm bar spacing screens became the norm and, by the late 1990’s screens with 6mm diameter holes became the norm. This stopped most observable solids reaching the receiving waters.
Over the next decade or so, several new works were built or old works were given a major upgrade. The so called Marine Treatment Works, where the sewage was fine screened and then pumped a couple of kilometres out to sea were all converted to pumping only treated sewage out to sea.
One point that is noteworthy is that very few treatment works did anything to stop pathogens passing through to the receiving waters. During my time at Southern Water, I only worked on one treatment works that used UV to sterilise the works effluent. For that Works, we had to import a system from Canada, there was no UK source for this equipment.
The incoming sewers are sized to carry the flows up to a specified storm return period, and treatment works include storage tanks to hold the excess flow until the storm flow abates, or few a few hours so that solids can settle so that any storm discharge is free of solids. Excess flows were allowed to overflow at Sewer Overflows. When I retired, there was a major drive to fit automatic 6mm screens to the overflows to prevent anything observable reaching the receiving waters. These screens usually operated by collecting the solids and passing them to their downstream end to continue on to the treatment works. If the sewer can’t handle the flow, there are two options, install sewer overflows or let the sewage flood somewhere – one thing that is very apparent is that sewage keeps coming whether the systems can handle it or not!
From privatisation until I retired, I got the general feeling that operational staff were keen to ensure that the plant met its design criteria and complied fully with EA requirements. Works outfalls were regularly tested to ensure they complied with the discharge consent and most sewer overflows were fitted with, or were scheduled to be fitted with overflow detectors.
I’m not sure what’s gone wrong in recent years, one possibility is that the systems are being pushed beyond capacity to achieve profits, another is that climate change has caused the severity and frequency of storms to increase resulting in plant being overwhelmed. In reality, it is probably a combination of both, with the added factor that the EA no longer has the money to monitor the system adequately.
If the problem is climate change, then costs will be significant, new sewers may be required and treatment works storm tanks will need upgrading to hold more storm water.
I’m not sure if this helps in estimating the cost of getting ‘rid of the shit’, but I hope it gives some insight into what may be going wrong and why the solution may be ‘complicated’.
As someone who thinks privatisation was a mistake, I have to say that something had to change in the late 1980’s, sewage treatment was not something that the government wanted to spend money on and the systems in operation at the time were obsolescent and in need of major upgrades.
Thanks
There is a major problem with EA cuts
But there also 10 million or more people since you retired and little investment
Might be worth a look at Surfers Against Sewage? Personally, I’m a little worn by my mobile phone providor adding 17.5% to my bill today. Yes it seems like a free for all, for which we seem to accept ,, and this government needs to take control.
Additional storm storage capacity is one very important answer in the short term, to cater for under-investment over recent years that has seen over £50bn in dividends paid out to shareholders of water companies. Another answer is EA recruitment (numbers savagely cut in the name of austerity) to ensure compliance, with some capital on remote monitoring systems to assist them.
This, while building regulations and planning regs are updated to divert rain water away from the sewage system and put it to useful purposes as we face up to the uncertain consequences of climate change. It is not sensible to be using expensively treated drinking water for flushing toilets, washing the car and watering the garden. In the long term this will improve sewage plant efficiency and reduce costs to consumers.
So capital in the next few years will have to go on more storm storage, in addition to some improvements to existing treatment facilities.
Adding to the post by RobinT50 (which I thought very good indeed), we recently did a study on oxygen uses from electrolysers producing hydrogen (powered by renewables). The most promising use was………sewage plants where the oxygen would greatly accelerate the sewage treament process. For rural and light suburban areas, renewables (plus electrolysers) have a business case. Some thought with respect to siting renewables & electrolysers vis-a-vis sewage treament plants could deliver benefits for all.
I second Patrick’s comment – check out both the rivers trust and surfers against sewage who have both been campaigning on sewage and you would hope they have a grasp on the costs involved in tackling water quality issues.
https://theriverstrust.org/key-issues/sewage-in-rivers
https://sas.org.uk/water-quality/water-quality-facts-and-figures/
Thanks
Both have great data – but nothing on the cost of remedying the failures
It’s a little bit off topic, but worth noting that in Belgium, probably other places too, it is law to have rain water tanks on new builds. My friends could hold 12000 litres in there’s for toilets, outside taps etc. I had a system on my last house & greatly reduced my bills. Less rainwater went into the drains. In England we were not allowed to store more than 10000 litres for some reason. I used the untreated water in toilets, washing machine, outside taps & shower. Still alive to tell the tale, as are my family!
Interesting idea