I think this says what is required better than I can. And please don't accuse Peter Jukes of the Byline Times of being anything but left wing.
When it comes to other forms of racism, we listen to those who are a victims of it. So why not with Anti-Semitism? Here @Freedland explains why pinning US police brutality and knee holds on Israel is so offensive. pic.twitter.com/bvdjEHZwa9
— Peter Jukes (@peterjukes) June 27, 2020
Freedland gets it right too.
And I know it's considered appropriate on the left to attack anyone who writes for the Guardian. Frankly, I don't care. I reiterate: Freedland got it right. If your prejudice cannot handle that you're on the wrong blog here.
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I agree with Freedman’s take on this. I can’t understand why anyone could think that the US police need lessons in brutality from anyone else. And then to claim that they got this technique from the Israeli secret service is bizarre. Neither of them were thinking, and Long-Bailey got what she deserved, especially as she refused to take it down or admit she did anything wrong. Could it be that she thought she could get away with it after being called out due to her being a Corbynite? I don’t know.
I suspect once she realised the error – and I am willing to allow the possibility that it was inadvertent – she chose the fight
Some on the left like fights they can’t win
“I can’t understand why anyone could think that the US police need lessons in brutality from anyone else. And then to claim that they got this technique from the Israeli secret service is bizarre.” There may well be a question over the specific knee-on-neck technique, but the general thrust – that Israeli state forces have been training US forces in aggressive restraint techniques for many years – is a matter of record, and long-standing matter of grave concern for Amnesty International: see here https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/
As for the specific technique which killed Floyd, it may well not be an officially approved or taught one – but that was also said in the US in response to Floyd’s killing. The fact remains that it is frequently used in both states, and there is ample evidence of that: see here, for instance https://pictures.reuters.com/CS.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&VBID=2C0FCI1ZFERDT&SMLS=1&RW=1495&RH=763#/SearchResult&VBID=2C0FCI1ZFERDT&SMLS=1&RW=1495&RH=763&POPUPPN=2&POPUPIID=2C0BF1QNZVXU0
Amnesty has said that story is wrong
Factcheck can find no evidence to support it https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-israeli-secret-service-teach-floyd-police-to-kneel-on-neck
It’s used: no one denies it
But you persist in excusing the US police by saying they learnt it from Israel
Join the banned list
This is doubly racist – once for blaming Israel, twice for excusing the US police
@KenM
But US police *have* trained in Israel.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/
The question then is what were they taught? Police across the US have used horrific levels of violence against protestors. The training they receive is obviously a very important factor which must be looked at – especially any training given by a country which routinely violates human rights.
None of this is remotely antisemitic.
Amnesty have apologised for saying this
They say there is no such evidence
That has now been said many times
But you repeat it
Welcome to the banned list
Amnesty don’t seem to have taken down their 2016 piece (“With Whom are Many U.S. Police Departments Training? With a Chronic Human Rights Violator — Israel”) or apologised as far as I can see, but perhaps you can give us a link.
Channel 4 has done some more work in trying to work out where Peake’s specific allegation might have come from: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-israeli-secret-service-teach-floyd-police-to-kneel-on-neck
Channel 4 quotes Amnesty as saying (to the New Stateman, here: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/06/amnesty-international-we-never-reported-neck-kneeling-taught-israelis-us ): “the precise nature of the training offered to US police forces by Israeli officials is not something we’ve documented … Allegations that US police were taught tactics of ‘neck kneeling’ by Israeli secret services is not something we’ve ever reported.”
Channel 4 also refers back to a piece in the Morning Star in June, which reports that “Minnesota police officers attended a 2012 conference hosted by the Israeli consulate in Chicago”, where allegedly they “learned the violent techniques used by Israeli forces as they terrorise the occupied Palestinian territories under the guise of security operations”.
And then it includes a quote from Neta Golan, saying: “When I saw the picture of killer cop Derek Chauvin murdering George Floyd by leaning in on his neck with his knee as he cried for help and other cops watched, I remembered noticing when many Israeli soldiers began using this technique of leaning in on our chest and necks when we were protesting in the West Bank sometime in 2006. … it is clear that they [Israel] share these methods when they train police forces abroad in ‘crowd control’ in the US and other countries including Sudan and Brazil.”
But Channel 4 also goes on to report that neck restraints and choke holds were permitted by Minneapolis Police in 2010, and perhaps even as early as 2002, well before these events.
Make of that what you will. But it is quite clear that US police can use excessive violence without help from anyone else.
Precisely Andrew
There simply is no link
Unless, of course, you want to let the US police off responsibility for their actions by saying they were only doing what Israel taught them…
I totally agree.
It amazes me that so many on the left cannot separate legitimate criticism of the State of Israel from what Steve Cohen identified as “ascribing world power to zionism and holding all Jews in the world responsible for this” (in That’s funny, you don’t look anti-semitic, 1984).
It is not antisemitic to criticise the oppression of Palestinians by the state of Israel. It is antisemitic to blame the only Jewish state in the world for acts over which it has no responsibility (like the murder of George Floyd by US police ). The age-old slander that Jews are behind all the world’s evils is no less of a slander if you substitute the word ‘Israel’ for ‘the Jews’.
Agreed
By not condemning the evil practices of this or that state, are we condoning their guilt?
It is perfectly permitted to criticise a state
That is not what happened in the case that I suspect you are alluding to
Your last paragraph was particularly helpful. Thanks for that.
Are you suggesting that the Guardian is a right way newspaper?
What is a right way newspaper?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/mar/22/case-for-intervention-still-strong
Here is Freedland supporting the war on Libya which is still raging almost a decade later and has seen the emergence of slave markets and the launching point for thousands of immigrants to drown in the Med.
Why would anyone take lessons in anti racism from a warmonger?
I frequently disagree with Simon Jenkins in the Guardian. And sometimes what he writes is amazingly good.
I absolutely disagree with Larry Elliot on the subject of Brexit, but he remains a friend of mine.
I disagree with Jonathan Freedland on many things, but respect his right to differ.
But there should be zero tolerance of racism, Which is why you’re now on the banned list of this blog
Ring wing.
Surely with your propensity for typos you could have worked this out, Richard?
I am not saying the Guardian is right-wing
No. Are you?
Centre, yes
Left, often not
Annoying?
Frequently
But right-wing?
No
Yes I thought it was a good article by Jonathan Freedland too.
He explains things very well.
Please don’t get demotivated about your blog.
Most people (even good people) don’t seem to realise that just because their intentions weren’t racist/sexist/ageist doesn’t mean their words or actions weren’t, or that they could be construed that way and cause offence.
It’s amazing how a little apology and a little bit of education can help.
The right way to handle a mistake like this is to react like Amber Rudd last March, who quickly apologised for saying, “coloured woman.”* (Describing Dianne Abbott).
I have to admit I’m not impressed with people who aren’t willing to change their behaviour and language they use if they are told it’s offensive to someone.
Why would anyone deliberately want to cause offence to someone – unless they somehow think they are superior?
*That reminds me of a poem by Agra Gra, “And You Call Me Colored” – Classic.
Plead keep the faith Richard.
Thanks Ken
But let’s not doubt that much of this anti-Semitic racism is deliberate as are many of the comments being made here
Starmer is way to the right of me politically but he’s right to have zero tolerance of much of the toxicity of the left and I am happy to share it
I think Freedland gets it broadly right here. Despite disagreeing with him on almost everything else he writes.
I think Jukes doesn’t. One of the great tragedies is we very often don’t listen to other victims of racism.
Starmer’s tone deaf response to the BLM protests, the response to the anti-black racism towards it’s own MPs shown in the leaked anti-antisemitism report, and their woeful inaction on various forms of islamophobia from some of it’s MPs and members show that, in my opinion he and the party aren’t listening quite so hard to other victims of racism.
If he doesn’t show just as much of a zero tolerance approach on all forms of racism (and I believe he should as he has done in this instance), listening to the victims first, then he will guilty of using antisemitism here as a tool to win a political battle, which would be disappointing to say the least.
I expect him to be as vigilant on other issues as well
Didn’t you support Corbyn at the last election and defended him against allegations of antisemitism?
No
And no
His actions on anti-Semitism were always hopelessly inadequate
I have long criticised (2016) his leadership
Welcome to the banned list
I did not expect you to comment at all on RLB’s dismissal and I rather wish you hadn’t. She was a non-entity to be honest. It’s opened a can of toxic worms.
I’m struck by the fact that here we have been arguing and falling out about it, but has RLB said anything since?
We should have left it to her really. My internal thought process upon reading what she had said was that she was referring to the Israeli Government and not to Jews per se. An Israeli Government – like my own, like the American one, the Hungarian one, the Polish, the Syrian one – all whom seem in the thrall of some bad idea who seem to be behaving very badly towards certain sectors of the population under their control.
Governments everywhere it seems these days remain a problem for their people and those of us reading about what they get up to. And I am always intently interested in what Governments are doing and why in a period where Government behaviour is becoming less democratic and representative of their peoples. Everything feels like it is turning to shit.
BTW: From what I have read over the years, it has been the other way around – it is the U.S that has exported its suppressive techniques to the Middle East and elsewhere.
But my view is now this: RLB should speak for herself in such matters – that is what I have learnt for myself. We respect the victim and show solidarity by letting the alleged accuser explain themselves or offer apology. We do not attempt provide it for them.
If I am to be barred for this then fair enough Richard as I have become heartily as sick of it as you have. I bear you no ill if so. I will continue to read, and had intended to make a regular donation, so if you’d rather not receive that, let me know to keep things easier.
RLB has never been good at speaking for herself – look at how ling it took her to even get to say she was in the leadership race
But you’re not barred
Your comment also hints at the essence of what creates racial inequity – which is racist policy
That dimension is critical – but not what Maxine Peake was referring to.
A late night musing on the politics rather than the principle of the topic – with which I am in complete agreement.
By definition we outsiders have no direct knowledge of what conspiratorial activities go on behind the closed doors of power. It’s only in retrospect that the ‘truth’ seeps out …. if we’re lucky. Sqwawkbox (that repository of unbiased insider intel within the LP – lol) insists RLB was fired for a totally different reason – https://skwawkbox.org/2020/06/27/blairite-green-appointed-to-shadow-ed-as-starmer-prepares-to-go-to-war-with-teaching-unions-over-schools-return-on-johnsons-behalf.
And The Canary has issued this video expressing its displeasure with the new party leader : ‘Keir Starmer Unmasked’ – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iY9FSR9SGs. No need to watch all Kerry-anne Mendoza’s lengthy polemic. Just go to #2.34 which is the relevant bit here.
I feel there’s something of a Shakespearean tragedy about the current Labour Party. And in a similar vein, your associating Starmer with Machiavelli may not be too far off the mark either. After all, he is a QC.
As I said, who really knows what the underlying plot is with any major political party, except that there always is one, thus debasing the democratic process which is already distressingly fragile. Walter Scott’s line in Marmion comes to mind: “Oh, what a tangled web we weave / When first we practise to deceive!” Plus ça change ….
I like to think the Green Party is more transparent and less divisive. I hope so. Thankfully there’s no whiff of AS or any form of racism within its ranks of officers and supporters.
Thanks
They were not going to go down without a fight
Ze plot tickens! Hot off the press – https://skwawkbox.org/2020/06/27/skwawkbox-editor-lodges-formal-antisemitism-complaint-against-keir-starmer-for-conflation-of-jewish-people-with-actions-of-israeli-government-in-breach-of-ihra-code.
While I don’t like making predictions, yet once again it appears the LP is going to disappear up its own backside. Boris and Dom must be relishing the spat as they need all the support they can get. Although one shouldn’t underestimate Starmer’s managerial ability and 2024 is still a long way off.
Happy Sunday!
All I can say is that I have never held the personal view that any people (Jews, Englishman, Americans, French, Germans whatever) are responsible for the behaviour of their Government.
I realised this many moons ago when I used to call Americans ‘yanks’ in my criticism of American economic and social policy. Clearly, Governments these days are hurting their own people pursuing policies that they do – the U.S. Government included.
So I decided not to use that term because it was wrong, unjust and inaccurate and said so. We must be clear about where our criticism lies and that it is accurate and founded on facts.
I think we also have to realise that we are living in a new political era which we have not yet come to terms with in its ability to confuse and distract.
Ed note:
You asked to be banned
I have obliged
Some (The Israeli State) would like to equate criticism of the actions of the Israeli State (By Israeli State, I mean the government apparatus not it’s people) as being AntiSemitic.
Accusations of Anti-Semitism are being used to shut down any debate/criticism of the actions of the Israeli State against Palestinians.
It’s a perilous path to tread.
Peake should have checked her facts before saying that the kneeling on the neck was learnt from Israeli Police training manuals. I’m sure that the US police could have come up with that one all on their own. But that oppressive regimes such as those of Israel and the US share policing ideas and tactics should come as no surprise to anyone.