The Mail is very upset this morning:
Maybe the Mail should read Luke Chapter 4:
Note the good news to the poor bit?
Or maybe the Mail should read the Magnificat, sung every evening in every Cathedral in the UK:
Try 52 and 53 for starters, I suggest.
I can hear the storms of protests I will get for saying this, but Jesus was a socialist.
And so were the early Christians. Try this from Acts 2:
Justin Welby is being true to his faith.
The Mail need to understand it.
So too does the whole Church of England.
Thanks for reading this post.
You can share this post on social media of your choice by clicking these icons:
You can subscribe to this blog's daily email here.
And if you would like to support this blog you can, here:
Jesus said to the flock “Help your neighbour and take care of the poor and helpless”.
“But Jesus, can’t we just give the money to the Romans and let them to do it for us?”, came a reply from the throng.
Jesus slowed down and explained “Okay, I’m going to start over from the beginning. Let me know where I lost you”
[…] IPPR Commission on Economic Justice reported yesterday. There has already been some reaction. There is much to like in the report. I highlight this on corporation […]
I can’t wait for Michael Hudson’s book this November.
I’d like to see Progressives reaching out to religious groups about Jesus’ ideas about unfairness plus also reminding them that Judaism , Islam and Christianity do not really approve of usury in order for people to live. And if they do, they set limits on it – the debt jubilee for example.
The only problem is if such religious groups also wanted a say in the policy other areas of life such as abortion, same sex marriage and the like. That to me would be a problem and it would have to be made very clear where policy lines were drawn. I mean look what happens in the States. Ugh!
I’ve often felt the Church should stay out of sex
It’s never got it right
But ….but ….the Church of England is the Conservative party at prayer.
Economically conservative, socially conservative and about as much use (with a few exceptions) as chocolate a fireguard. An architectural heritage trust. Time it was incorporated into that other bastion of fine British Victorian, middle class values…The Notional (sic) Trust.
Andy
That may be the case where you live.
I have in my capacity however as a social housing worker worked and still work with local clergy who are passionate about unfairness and despair at their own church’s attitude to these issues.
These men and women are far from Tories at prayer. And since 2010 they have been dealing with a tsunami of problems created by inhuman Tory policies and a frayed social security system. This experience has obviously worked its way up the church hierarchy. Let’s keep an open mind.
The two vicars I knew in Essex were LP members. One was from a working class background and the other, from his very posh accent, was not. Must say, however, my local vicar now (contact because of family weddings and funerals) appears to be as true blue as the rest of this Geriatric by the Sea.
They exist
so much in the prophet Isaiah is spot on for our times. Seems like we haven’t learned very much over the centuries. There ARE ‘voices in the wilderness’ crying out for those who are vulnerable. They are not all coming from the church, even so they are pleasing God in their defending those who need help. May their message get a hearing and their influence be felt in the corridors of power – soon, please, soon.
Richard,
Not only was Jesus a socialist, but he was sound on tax – “render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesar’s”
What may be of interest, is whether there are moves to resuscitate a cheep and cheerful ‘own brand Socialism’ that Mrs May talked about at the beginning of her premiership. For instance, Robert Shrimsley wrote recently in the FT about a new workplace contract and the Government’s options. There is also to-day’s Sky News data in which there is considerable agreement (including a plurality of Conservative voters) with the statement that the economy does not work fairly.
I was always under the impression that the Daily Mail’s deity of choice was Mammon, however your comments might equally be directed to the vicar’s daughter. (Mrs T May).
“And, lo, when she opened the fifth cabinet, I beheld a dead horse and he that sat thereon was called Brexit, and she flogged him for all that she was worth”
Somebody should tell both the Daily Mail and Richard Murphy that Jesus is only make believe.
Unfortunately both politicians and archbishops actually exist.
I don’t think Jesus was make believe
I think he existed
You can say Christianity is make believe
That’s a different claim
Our local humanist chair would beg to differ, Richard – no real evidence. He was at a seminary when he ‘saw the light’.
If there wasn’t someone called Jesus – a person that is – then I think there was probably someone else called Jesus who said much the same thing
I am not attaching divinity here – I am simply saying I think there was a man who said a great deal that was attributed to him and ended up on a cross
Can’t resist re-posting (from 2 years ago) the quote by William Temple, the socially progressive Archbishop of Canterbury (1942—44) who allegedly replied to the question”Does Christianity work?”, “I don’t know, it’s never been tried”. Even if he never actually said it, it’s true enough – not unlike ‘Communism’.
“If there wasn’t someone called Jesus — a person that is — then I think there was probably someone else called Jesus who said much the same thing..”
We do get rather hung-up on questions of attribution. Something similar applies to the works of Shakespeare. The only thing we know for sure is whoever wrote them is now long dead, but the words survive and are still works of considerable merit with lessons for us today.
I’ve often thought it would be quite easy to develop a ‘religion’ around the ‘scriptures’ of Shakespeare.
As ‘Shakespeare’ himself said…”A rose by any other name…. “
To me Jesus exists because of the power of his words and his observation in particular respect to what we now call economics and the economics of unfairness. He basically asked questions that – if answered – could create heaven on Earth (why do we have to die to go to a better place when we could make it so alive and in the here and now, if we just worked harder at it?).
And I speak as an atheist.
To me he is an ideal conscious being – aware of what is around him and unflinching in his summary of injustice.
I do not believe that he is the son of God or that he cured the sick or that he was resurrected. But I consider myself a follower of what he says about fairness. I would have followed him on the basis of the words ascribed to him and would do so today.
No question.
His wisdom is essentially humane even stripped of its religiosity.
His like is so needed now as we begin to skirt with darker ideas.
Richard, of course, this is why I am a Christian Socialist. Now, three observations.
First, in your quote from Luke, where Jesus quotes from Isaiah 61, vv 1-2, “the year of the Lord’s favour”, refers to the Jubilee Year, set out in Leviticus 25, when all debts are remitted, and all those in debt bondage freed.
Secondly, as regards the words if the Magnificat, when the great evangelist and translator, Henry Martyn, arrived in India in 1805, he found that the East India Company, which virtually ruled India then, had forbidden the recitation of the Magnificat, “lest ‘putting down the mighty from their seats’ should incite the natives”.
Finally, could I express my disappointment at Andy Crow’s comment? There’s undoubtedly a lot wrong with every church, but to encounter yet again the glib “de haut en bas” dismissal of what Archbishop Welby has done here is tedious to a degree. If the church does nothing, it’s accused of being irrelevant, if it does something, it’s often accused of meddling.
All I can say to Andy is that, with all their undoubted faults, the churches do a lot of quiet good, under the radar and behind the scenes. They’re not always alone, I agree, as there are many secular organisations and charities at work on the margins, but sometimes they are the only ones there.
I deeply respect the work of those secular organisations and charities, and only ask in return some recognition and respect for the significant contribution of the churches to the common good.
I don’t often talk faith here
But I too am a Christian Socialist
There are aspects of Christianity that I find hard and even unacceptable. Most are glaringly obviously very post Jesus human constructs
But I find faith of value
And think those living by their faith can be testimonies of truth speaking to power as well
Even when they have power, as Welby has
I’m sorry if I’ve upset you, Andrew Dickie,
You might excuse me thinking that what “Archbishop Welby has done here is tedious to a degree.”
If it’s any consolation I’m not a big fan of any of the other religious orders and denominations either, who persist in basing their thinking around a foundation of iron age hokum.
I’m prepared to agree to differ with large swathes of humanity on this issue. And you might grant me that I said there were exceptions to the uselessness of churches. There are some good people who find the religious structures provide organisations which are amenable to their doing good works. I know some of them.
.
Andy,
I’ve only just seen your response, and to be honest, I was very uneasy about making the comment I made, since it was personal and would have been better communicated personally. But I have no other means of contacting you, and felt the need to make a point.
Thank you for your response, and be assured I accept your bona fides, as a person of “good will”, as it is clear you accept mine. There is so much common ground between people of “good will”, I would hope we can work together within that common ground, to achieve things for the common good, accepting that we all come from different belief systems which should only enter the argument where those systems obstruct progress towards the attainment of that common good.
Thank you Andrew
I think youy both are people with goodwill
Sorry to repeat myself but the problem with religion as I see it is why do you have to be dead to be happier? And why is the afterlife meant to be better (I do not know of anyone who can personally vouch for this) and not the one we live on Earth? The whole thing comes across as a deferred benefits system. But why defer until after death?
Religion becomes nothing but a coping mechanism for human cruelty, harshness and injustice rather than mechanism for social improvement. The idea that the afterlife is better also helps to put us off dealing with the environment. Over -valuing the spiritual over the temporal (what an awful term in religion to describe worldly phenomena BTW) can be seen as making the here & now of less value.
What nonsense. I do really think if we took Jesus’ words on fairness more seriously (and what about Mohammed?) then life would be much more worth living and rewarding because it would be fairer. Jesus is supposed have said his words here on Earth. He was trying to tell us something.
It also seems to me that the rich ad powerful have the habit of claiming Jesus for themselves very effectively. I’m not so sure about Islam or Judaism. How many politicians have made fateful and questionable decisions and then turned around and said ‘God will be my judge’ but not the voter or a committee? Yeah right………….
I have had conversations with people who call themselves Christians but whom have emphasised to me the personal relationship I could potentially have with God and how it might benefit me materialistically!
I didn’t think that it was about ‘me’. I thought that God and all that was about ‘us’.
Bizarre.
But Jesus – whoever he was – whether a man, woman, black or white or just wise words – yes – he/she/it/them was one of the coolest socialists ever.
I am as clueless as you on this one PVSR
As far as I am concerned whether or not there is an afterlife is a matter of curious indifference
But I sure as heck want the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth according to the frame of reference in the Magnificat
The NT gives no examples of Jesus teaching about some of the big questions of morality concerning us today, such as sexual orientation, the environment, the treatment of animals. I’m not sure that anything he was alleged to have said had never been said and recorded before.
Thy Kingdom come,
on Earth as it is Heaven.
Who hasn’t said that at some stage in their life if they only recited it from the prayer sheet ?
It means something.
Richard the great danger with the Christianity is that some people will want to actually practice it. Hence, huge political resources have to be employed to make sure such people remain in the minority.
🙂
On the other hand…
Someone ( I believe it might even have been Jesus!) When asked why the emperor s head appeared on the coinage and not that of Jesus replied:
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are God s.
…..
This is the same problem some have with J.C but who are the Romans in this
Carol
The world inhabited by Jesus (whether you believe that he lived or not) would have been a far different one with its own problems. Maybe earlier forms of Christianity were not too bothered about sexual orientation or the treatment of animals? As for the environment – although mankind was certainly making its mark across the world the industrial revolution was along way off (it is the IR that has given birth to environmental problems – no doubt about that).
But there was and is a religious concern about fairness and debt that has its founding principles that even pre-date Christianity.
Have a read of this – it is very well researched and seems to be the precursor to his forthcoming book:
http://michael-hudson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/HudsonLostTradition.pdf