Watch this clip, including Trump speaking:
He says, addressing Christian Nationalists:
“Get out and vote. Just this time. You won't have to do it anymore. Four more years, you know what: it'll be fixed, it'll be fine. You won't have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians…. Get out, you've got to get out and vote. In four years, you don't have to vote again, we'll have it fixed so good you're not going to have to vote.”
Is that the fascist announcing his intention to end democracy? It would seem like it.
Worry.
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What other interpretation is there? He might have meant “Things will be so good you won’t want to vote to change them” but that’s not what he said. Is he that stupid or that confident?
Yes – but who is going to be a new Trump? Or is there going to be a Soviet-style committee of trumpoids? We mustn’t forget that Trump is 79 now and mentally is probably worse than Biden (I wonder what Nikki Haley thought after he spoke to her thinking he was speaking to Nancy Pelosi) even pumped up with who knows what drugs. What happens with Maga after he’s gone? Who will take over? Is it going to be peaceful? I realise Trump is just a vessel for something else, but that something else doesn’t seem to have anyone but Trump as a frontrunner. Can you imagine this JD Vance leading anything? Dems might not be much, but they have quite a few people who could easily take over if there was no Harris (which is something that I can’t understand – why they haven’t given more space to someone else but Biden during the last 4 years – this would include Harris as well – she was given a sort of tasks where one can do nothing but fail)
Fun fact: the early Christians (before the Church was formed) seemed to practise a form of communism, as detailed in Acts 2:42-47 and Acts 4:32-37.
Emphatically true
Jesus also questioned the role of the family, quite explicitly
Matthew
You may have seen that some US Republican states want the Ten Commandments displayed in classrooms.
( I do wonder if they thought it through as one commandment says God is a jealous God and will PUNISH THE CHILDREN for the sins of the parents-although maybe Republicans might approve with selected groups)
In the Gospel of Mark a young man asks Jesus what he must do to have eternal life. Jesus quotes only the last six, not the first four. The man says, ‘done that all my life.’ He is then told he must give away all he has to the poor. He goes away-not unnaturally -unwilling)
Dos this make Jesus the first socialist? Some thought in the past. I don’t. I interpret that as not putting material things before relationships and compassion. In the words the Psychoanalyst Eric Fromm the choice is between ‘to have or to be.’
There are even some socialists who view things in just or mainly material terms. That sort of socialism is of little value in my opinion.
Much to agree with
Early Christians may have practiced a form of socialism but modern Christianity is more broadly aligned to racism and fascism.
I read a very interesting final year history dissertation of Sheffield University student who provided and interpreted primary source evidence to show Christian missionaries were the third arm of colonialism. The first two being corporate (think East India company), the second the state (say no more) and the third being Christian missionaries.
Their role was to erase and destroy foreign cultures. If that isn’t aligned to fascism then I don’t know what is.
What we can say is Trump knows where his base is to build an authoritarian America. He has gone to the right crowd.
I have no doubt about that claim
This might interest you
there was a counter force -at least among the elites. The Theosophical Society taught there was one truth behind all religions and they reckoned it was similar to Buddhist and Hindu thought. The founders, the Russian Helena Blavatsky and the American Henry Olcott toured India to defend Indian religion against Christian missionaries. about the 1880s This inspired some Indians to have more confidence in their defence but also to take more of 19th century scientific discoveries.
A later leader of the Society, Annie Besant, leader of the match girls strike of 1888, was very uncomplimentary about the Raj . She, with some Indians, founded in 1916 an All India Independence League based on the model of the Irish nationalists (she was mostly Irish ) and locked up by the Raj. They released her after a while and admitted the long term aim was Indian independence. ( I think if Liberal or Labour govt had been in power, it would have been well on the way by 1939) She voted President of the Congress party for a year before Gandhi .
The second President of India Savarpalli Radakrishnan acknowledged their contribution and Nehru has a tutor at one from the TS.
Christianity had its converts but did not take hold in india.
I was not aware if he4 role
I did know of the Theosophicals
Definitely. Yet people will vote for him. Then there’s Project 2025, which doubtless all here have heard of, but the excellent Robert Reich has given an interesting summary of some of the essentials here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-e6YM-UcUU
Just this am on the Today programme I heard a clip of him alleging that ‘Marxist’ Kamala Harris will ruin American democracy by… wait for it …packing the supreme court! (Another example of the current RW extremists accusing others of doing what they are doing – an interesting approach psychologically, well-enough known to have been recognised as either Projection or Displacement. Getting rid of guilt feelings by pushing the guilt onto others.)
Dark times await if Harris does not get elected, and even if she does Trump has promised a revolution if he does not get elected. Very dark times.
I can’t see the link but it’s on X in a Guardian report.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/27/trump-speech-no-need-to-vote-future
While he was President he had a photo shot of him at his Oval Office desk surrounded by Evangelical leaders.
A man pretending to be Christian surrounded by people pretending he is so they can use him to impose their beliefs on abortion on the majority, who do not share their views.
Any Liberal candidate of Trump’s character would condemned by them out of hand.
I am not a Trinitarian Christian but I agree with this quote by Jesus
Matthew 15 v7-9
You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “ ‘These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”
Sums it up well.
I’ve added a link now…sorry
Embedding is playing up today
no need to apologise.These things happen
In order to avoid democracy Trump has to turn to God! What a load of bull-shit some Americans (and some British) believe!
Hmmm…………….
Look, I no longer believe in Western democracy, but that to me is an isolated individualist intellectual position. But it allows me to understand where Trump and his followers are coming from as they do not believe in democracy either.
Where I am different is that I will not get sucked into typically fascistic reasoning and other false promises and causes that are always employed by people like Trump.
Democracy can be changed and improved however so that I can believe in it although I think that the ways and means of this change have yet to be determined and some seriously painful nettles will need to be grasped.
Trump however is for ending democracy completely and creating some sort of perma-state based on vested self-interest which is actually no better than the cancers that eat at democracies now.
To be clear, it is democracy that is letting people down – badly. It is not just down to dealing with the likes of Trump and Farage, Putin and Orban etc.
Democracy needs to heal itself for sure. The failure of democracy serves as fuel for the likes of Trump. It is high time the fuel lines were severed. Forever.
I do ebelieve in democracy
My position is, I’d like it
That’s prima facie a good answer, but its not the answer to the problems we have.
Democracy?
Do we really know what it is?
Do we really know how to defend it? What it takes to get it?
Do we have it at all, or is it as ephemeral as the money that corrupts it?
Are we prepared to curtail the freedoms of certain groups to defend it so that it delivers what it promises?
Are we prepared to create our reality, to be sovereign and make the exception to meet the challenge of those doing the same to undermine it?
Is our democracy a moral one, and if not how do we make it so?
We come here to imagine a different world. But what does it actually take to deliver it?
Until we have the answers, personally I do not think that we can believe in a democracy of ‘now’.
Write the book…..
It is representative democracy that is fundamentally flawed — positions of power inevitably lead to abuse. This is confounded by the very nature of FPTP (and even, to a lesser extent, PR) which operates on a “winner takes all” paradigm and so allows the majority to subjugate the minorities.
True democracy is represented by consensus decision making in the communities which are experiencing the problems and mediated from the ground up rather than imposed from the top down.
More here: https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/consensus
I think a balance is required
Most people have a limited appetite for involvement
Well said Matthew.
Diffusion of power limits demagoguery and provides more engagement, as well as scrutiny.
Decentralised and devolved powers are a first step in full participatory democracy, hence federations offer wider participation.
ALL the Scandi democracies have considerable devolution of power to their municipalities.
I think the UK is one of the most centralised of any industrial nation.
Stephen Reicher – a very good behavioural psychologist who is / was also on Independent Sage – very good on why people vote Trump in today’s Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/26/donald-trump-americans-vote-psychology
Excellent
I think he is very good
He really understands crowds
Trump and his followers would love it in Iran! How ironic they bothered with a revolution in the 18th century!
This was posted 3 years ago by a Trump suporter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b22bGn_69_M
According to Brian Tyler Cohen, Trump has recently reposted it.
Sorry wrong link!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIx4FpPrYQ
Donald Trump is clearly barking mad, but that unfortunately doesn’t mean he’s unelectable. He’s appealing to a lunatic Christian fringe; they might like what he says.
I do worry.
We might also consider the cultist aspects of the Trump phenomenon, maybe not entirely like the archetypal cults that remove themselves from society. But certainly a cult of personality. And it’s not just his voters, it’s the Party too, some of whose members are not totally stupid and could have got rid of him, but the whole Party seems to have been taken over by this cult of personality and act, if not against their own interests, surely against the interests of the US as a democracy, no matter how fallible that democracy is in practice.
History shows how difficult it can be to shake the faith of the strongman’s followers.
There are several serious discussions by psychiatrists and others on this.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/politics-psychiatry-and-psychoanalysis/202009/donald-trump-and-his-followers-are-they-cult
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trumps-personality-cult-plays-a-part-in-his-political-appeal/
Thank you
Speaking as an ex-American citizen (now UK only) who keeps in close touch with friends and family in the States, I fear this election result is going to boil down to getting the vote out.
Kamala Harris is not going to shift delusional Trump supporters away from their Messiah. They won’t be swayed by argument, proof of perfidy, anything. She can only motivate sane people to get out and vote against him. Positivity is fine, but I think she and her electoral team really need to employ the fear factor, ramped up to its highest level. It’s not hysterical; it’s pragmatic. It must happen. The danger is real. The effects of defeat will be permanent, as far as our lifetime goes.
I do believe the numbers are there to defeat Trump, but those people really must get out there and vote. The good news is, lots of people are terrified of what will happen if he wins. I just hope the sane voters outnumber the brainwashed on election day.
There really is no other issue this time.
All the other problems the US faces are solvable in due course—but only if he loses. (It will help a lot if the Democrats can take the House and Senate as well.)
Fear is a great motivator. It can be manipulated, of course, but sensible people in the USA are really scared right now. This may be enough. I hope.
You are right
Only 50% usually vote in US presidential elections so who can get people out will win
Not an economics book but Travellers in the Third Reich by Julia Boyd (allong with the companion book A Village in the Third Reich) is both telling and prescient, not just on the historic parallels with the threat from Trumpist fascism but allso on the fellow travellers (of whom there were plenty in the 1930’s, just as we have Farage, Truss and Johnson now)
Thanks
For once, I think people really are reading too much into Trump’s speeches. Remember, he’s a narcissist. All they do is about themselves. He sees the crowds as voting not for Republican policy, but for him personally. He knows he won’t be up for election in four years time, so as far as he’s concerned there will be no point in voting then.
That doesn’t mean there won’t be other evil men in his orbit working to destroy democracy. It’s just that Trump won’t care unless it means he benefits. And he hasn’t really thought that far ahead yet.
Maybe, but I am not entirely convinced
Maybe, but I would not want to risk your being wrong.
‘Is Trump promising the end of US democracy?’
Probably not. Seems more like Trump’s usual hyperbole.
Most people don’t agree with you, but he says so much crap, who knows?