This is the Telegraph's business page today:
This is the start of the story on Tim Martin, the boss of Wetherspoons:
Tim Martin was a massive supporter of Brexit, claiming it would be great for the UK. And now he very obviously does not think that remains the case.
He is right on this occasion, of course. Brexit offers no advantages for the UK at all. That I am aware of literally none have yet to be identified (and the vaccine argument is false). That is not surprising. When it came down to it everyone knew that Brexit was all about migration. And even that is now, very obviously, being seen to be unhelpful.
I am, of course, aware that suggesting that reversing Brexit should be on any agenda is now deemed politically unacceptable unless you are in Scotland. So let me speculate instead on how long it will be before the topic becomes a demand in the rest of the UK? At this rate, I would suggest that it's not long.
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Bo ho. My heart bleeds.
Just to give you a little taste of real brexit… I’ve just imported 5 radiators into Spain (1214 sterling ex vat, personal import) from the uk. After having been banged up in customs for over 2 months , they arrived yesterday, along with a bill for 460 euros for import doodas. I dread to think what would happen if this import was for business purposes.
I believe that Tim Martin has always advocated higher levels of immigration but at the same time, for all countries to be treated equally. He wanted a no deal, zero tariff outcome but I believe it’s because he could then source the cheapest food and drink he could. It’s because Spoons makes money by buying raw ingredients or processed food and drink then sells it to the consumer with a mark up included.
Tim Martin should pay Spoons staff fairly though as I imagine he has more than a few pounds in the bank. A higher minimum wage would surely hit higher earners more as they’d not be able to pay themselves as much
Actually I think Martin, like most Brexiteers, wants to have his cake and eat it. I doubt he’s changed his mind. They wanted the end of freedom of movement, but have totally underestimated the impact this would have on many areas of the economy and the public sector that relied heavily on EU workers coming here.
It doesn’t surprise me that they are now asking for visa schemes to be set up. Of course the Government should have prepared for this but like many other things they have failed to do so. The trouble is, I doubt that any visa scheme for EU nationals will have the same interest as what was there before. Freedom of movement gives people the opportunity to make a new life for themselves, a visa scheme says we want you for this length of time and no more – go home. I’d stick two fingers up to it and I suspect that is what many Europeans will do when they have a choice of 27 freedom of movement destinations.
As for reversing Brexit. Firstly, we need an opposition that isn’t afraid to talk about it and criticize. We then need that opposition to formulate a policy to foster the closest possible relationship with our nearest neighbours and allies that is not based on petty points scoring, re-fighting old wars and cakeism. The first step would be to dispel the myth that doing our own trade deals outside of the EU is some kind of panacea that makes Brexit work. It isn’t and never will be. A commitment to rejoining the single market would put clear daylight between the opposition and Tories and offer people a choice on our future direction. Unfortunately, Labour still seem to be playing along to the Tory tune on Brexit.
Amusingly there is an App called Neverspoons (https://neverspoons.app) which allows you to find non Wetherspoons pubs in your locality!
I like it
But not hard around me, thankfully
Their application in Eky was rejected
I imagine Eky is Ely. Interesting name though.
🙂
I like it! Avoid bloody Tim Martin’s pubs, so the hit to his pocket is added to the hit he’ll take by not having enough staff any more because of the Brexit he pushed for. I’ll download it forthwith. Of course, Mar P is correct to note that Martin, like the rest of the Brexit crew, is still spouting cakeism. Like the DUP halfwits in NI who are now whining about the effects of the NI protocol, which only exists because………they voted for Brexit!!!
Or the fishermen losing their businesses due to massively increased regulation when exporting to their main market, the EU. Or the farmers (58% voted for it!) moaning about being put out of business by cheaply produced Australian meat……………it’s what you voted for!!!
Personally, I wouldn’t be sorry to see Wetherspoons be forced to reduce its turnover or even go bust through being unable to get the staff they need. Good riddance.
And to think he peddled BREXIT full on even in his pub newsletters!!
In many ways though this is about HOW we left isn’t it, not that we actually pulled out.
We left badly – that is what we did.
I wonder if that point will get picked up many others. and I wonder if it will alter their support for the Tories as well, because it is they who made it happen so badly.
Won’t happen. The UK will never get the preferential deal it had back, and many in the EU sighed with relief when they saw the back of Farage and his nut job little Englanders. UK will slide backwards with everyone denying it.
Am I correct in thinking that a condition of rejoining the EU would be that we would have to adopt the Euro and that giving up our sovereign currency would be a bad thing?
We would have to promise to join
Sweden did in 1995
It has not done so
Bor would we
The EU would welcome us back I think as it would be self-justifying anyway – we were better off in and don’t we/they know it. Even better if we go back with some sort of proper controls on immigration – especially labour market controls and proper immigration integration policies into communities.
As for Mark, all I can say is that I understand perfectly why people voted for BREXIT:
Because they were pitilessly lied to and manipulated to do so on an industrial scale by minority vested interests playing to pre-existing prejudices. Many BREXIT voters have therefore been simply exploited.
There is no other way of seeing it in my view.
Brexit is about controlling immigration and not stopping immigration. No matter how many times people are told, they still do not get it. The situation is that House prices have shot up, people are struggling as wages have been driven down, medical waiting times have increased and school class sizes are over 30 in some cases and yet one side keeps advocating for uncontrolled immigration. Those issues listed were not addressed by those previously in Government who happened to be on the remain side, i.e Blair, Brown, Cameron, Clegg etc. So the people who are affected by rising house prices, increased medical waiting times, wages (i.e the low skilled) etc voted as they did because they didnt trust those mentioned to address their issues. Had those mentioned (Blair, Brown, Cameron, Clegg etc), addressed those issues whilst in power, Brexit would not have happened. The issue on the remain side concerns those people that are highly skilled and oblivious to the effect that uncontrolled immigration has had to those who are low skilled.
You don’t get that we could always control migration
You simply have not a case when we never used the powers we had
Nor is there any evidence that any of the claims you make are linked to migration anyway
So, respectfully, it is just down to bigotry which is what prejudice based on misinformation is
Thats odd, so why did Cameron go to Brussels and try and negotiate freedom of movement, and which he failed miserably. That demonstrated to those who voted Brexit that the Government does not control migration . You have immediately presumed that I voted Brexit and called me a bigot as result, but what you are is a fascist who doesnt like an opinion that disagrees with you. I may have voted remain and tried to understand why Brexiteers voted as they did, its because of people like yourself who have launched personal attacks that has led to Brexiteers hardening their attitudes and voting as they have in the last election in 2019 and Hartlepool by election. While you remain a fascist, I can see the Tories clinging on and Brexit will not be reversed.
Do you really think all migration is from the EU?
It isn’t.
Most has not been.
And since when was calling me a fascist not a personal attack?
Or posting misinformation on my blog wholly inappropriate?
Or just actually not knowing what you are talking about of any benefit
Make your case by all means, but please do it based on what is actually happening in the world. None of your claims stack
So what is it that you really want? A fantasy? It is hard to see otherwise. Is that why you vote for Johnson?
Mark : ” …has led to Brexiteers hardening their attitudes and voting as they have in the last election in 2019 and Hartlepool by election. ”
EU referendum Leave vote was 51.89% .
2019 General election, Tories got 43.6% of the vote. Add in Brexit Party and UKIP votes and that comes to 45.71 %.
So if that represents your “Brexiteers hardening their attitudes”, I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at.
There will obviously be various reasons why the “Brexit parties” vote share was even less than the barely-over-half of the referendum, misrepresented as the “will of the people”, but could one of them be that people, with several years to think it over, decided perhaps it wasn’t such a good idea after all ?
Would 45.71% have been more or less the Leave share of the vote in a second referendum ?
Speculation, of course, but I suspect it might have been. So did many Brexiteers, hence their reluctence for any further public say on the matter.
Incidentally, Corbyn’s Labour seemed to have the right idea, as presented in their 2019 manifesto, and paraphrased as :
(1) Continue with Brexit negotiations, to get the best leave deal possible.
(2) Put the final deal to a referendum – leave and this is what you’ll get, or remain.
This is a curious rag-bag of ideas, dangling from a straw man. Hardly anyone is arguing for uncontrolled immigration. The question is always, what controls should you have, and how are they implemented.
Have house prices shot up due to immigration? Rather than say a combination of demand outstripping the heavily constrained supply, and asset price inflation?
Rightly or (as most of the evidence shows) wrongly, many people on low wages are often concerned about immigrants “taking their jobs”. Particularly if they look or sound different, or prefer different foods. But farmers are worried about the lack of people to pick their crops, and bar and restaurant owners are concerned about a lack of staff. They can’t both be right. Wages may have been driven down in some sectors, but much of that is due to an inadequate minimum wage, and “gig” economy, not immigration.
Immigrants tend to be young and healthy. Many of them work in the NHS or do care work. Far from increasing medical waiting times, they help to reduce them. Yes, they often have children, who need educating. So let’s invest in schools, they need it anyway, and indeed in further and higher education to help “the low skilled”. These second generation children will grow up to pay the taxes and work in hospitals and care homes and a myriad of other useful occupations.
Free movement within the EU (while we were in it) included the ability for people to come and live and work in the UK, but equally for UK people to go and live elsewhere. We are going to find thousands of people who wanted to retire to Spain, for example, forced to remain in the UK.
Meanwhile, the hostile, cruel, inhumane attitude of the Home Office in general and the Border Force in particular are busily driving people away from the UK who we want to come or stay here.
Democracy a Reminder
The responsibility of this Government is immense,they are tasked with helping to deliver the biggest political mandate in UK history, whilst simultaneously negotiating with a vindictive European Commission. This is a noble cause, but one which is facing the endless threat of sabotage from a committed sect of detached Ministers, MPs and unelected Peers, and remainers who don’t want to leave the E.U. no matter what, never mind democracy, they don’t care about the big picture and the long term future of this fantastic country. We are the 5th largest economy in the world, for goodness sake have faith in it.
I know what I voted for in the 2016 EU Referendum: to break away from a diminishing market and expand our horizons; to create a truly Global Britain. I knew, and so did the 17.4 million others who voted Leave, we could not do this whilst being a member of the Customs Union.
Long has the Government stated, and voters understood, that as we rip up our EU membership, we rid ourselves of the Common External Tariff and become free to trade on our own terms with old friends and new allies.
I believe we must not become a vassal state, a meagre associate of a union in which we have no meaningful say. I voted for complete independence, and it must be granted. It is our voice which should be heard at the World Trade Organisation; our producers and consumers who will benefit from international trade deals; and our diplomats who fly all over the world to restore Britain’s international credentials.
Remaining in the Customs Union, explicitly or through some convoluted partnership, would tie us to the very union the Great British Public, and their representatives in Parliament, voted to Leave. Remaining would tether us to shrinking markets, whilst denying us access to others around the globe.
To not leave the Customs Union would be a betrayal of my vote, and one which I can assure you the country will never forget at the ballot box in the future.
If Brexit does not go through as promised, thousands of people including myself will have been betrayed by this government and will not VOTE again.It may lead to anachy by the ordinary man/woman in the street who thought the U.K. was 100% democratic.
Brexit therefore must go through sooner rather than later
I thought this country was democratic, it makes you think twice.
You remainers still make my blood boil, we are in this “Forever” good heavens we have only been out a few months, come back in 20yrs. This is “DEMOCRACY” get over it.
Given that leaving the Cust9oms Union was not promised during the Brexit campaign I am surprised you voted for it. Most leading Brexiteers dismissed the idea, for the record.
And as is very apparent, we cannot grow outside the EU. OPur trade is 23% down with the EU since Brexit but with the rest of the world about the same. The rest cannot make good the decline: they are too far away to trade with. It’s called geography. We are not better off.
So let’s be clear, you voted to be worse off. And that was not a good idea. And lots of people are changing their minds about that. Which is what democracy permits. In fact it is precisely what the whole of freedom is about. What you are trying to deny is the freedom to ever change. That’s a very strange idea. Why do you want to deny me my right, forever if I can persuade others of its merit?
But what I find really strange is that you think Brexit has not happened. When will it then?
I thought it was a parody account at first.
Then I thought it sounded remarkably like a back up to those targeted ‘dark adverts’.
Then I thought, it’s copied and pasted from facebook…
And all the while I was thinking that the perceived pressure on schools, healthcare, housing etc. was a direct result of tory ideology and vicious, needless, ‘austerity’.
Of course, tories who were pro EU could hardly come clean about the damage they’d done, could they?
You got your brexit though. Why are brexit supporters always so whiny? Did you actually want to have an excuse to beat people up and that is what you are missing?
Goodness me. A great many platitudes there to digest. You’d make a great cheerleader.
Biggest political mandate in U.K. history? Not really. A “noble cause” but facing the “endless threat of sabotage” from [insert favourite enemy], who don’t care about the “bigger picture” (they do but you called it Project Fear). Fascinating. Not only does the Brexit cause now have an external enemy, the EU, but it has internal enemies, many of whom are elected. Well we now how Adolf dealt with that! Where’s a good Kristallnacht when you need it? Have faith you ask, not remotely sardonically it must be noted.
You know what you voted for you say. To break away from a diminishing market (in which the U.K. had a massive competitive advantage in services), to create a truly Global Britain (what about Nth Ireland?) etc. I wonder how Germany has managed to become such an industrial powerhouse from within the EU and managed to sell multiples of what the UK does to countries outside, including China? And Germany isn’t unique within the EU in managing to achieve this.
The U.K. was never a “vassal state” within the EU. It was one of its most powerful and influential members and used that power and influence to bolster its own international credentials as a nation state. Indeed the U.K. was so influential it carved out more exemptions from the EU Treaties that the rest of the EU put together.
Good luck being “completely independent” in a world of trading giants. There isn’t any such thing as complete independence. All agreements involve compromise and a surrender of some sovereignty but they also increase one’s sovereignty by expanding influence and power into other states.
Clichés and emotional fist thumping only gets one so far. You’re in for a rude wake up call. Land of Hope and Glory indeed.
Again, thank you
Jim
You and many of you who voted for BREXIT have been had. It’s as simple as that.
I’m sitting here watching the news tonight watching farmers with not enough labour to get foodstuff out of the ground blaming it on BREXIT. Publicans who relied on low waged immigrant labour with not enough staff. Fishermen having problems selling their catch.
I watched as my brother – a lorry driver – started to try to get through customs when BREXIT actually happened only to run into huge delays and expense, to end up walking away from the job like many others.
None of this was talked about by the Tory Government. You – we – were lied to that everything was under control. It was not. We’ve watched skilled care and nursing staff go back home.
It is that that should be making your blood boil. Not us Remainers.
And, if the idea was to get English people to take up those jobs, where’s the pay and conditions to encourage them to do so? I tell you now that it is not there and won’t be.
And that should make your blood boil too.
Except that for you and too many others it seems it won’t.
Because cutting your nose off to spite face is where you remain.
What a shame.
The real ‘remainers’ now it seems are those who remain wedded to the lies and deceits about Europe and about BREXIT despite colossal evidence to the contrary.
You and those like you need to wake up – and right quick too. Denial will not help.
Agreed
Agreed PSR, absolutely correct. The level of wilful self-delusion amongst the Brexit ‘faithful’ is the same as that amongst brainwashed members of cults. Or true believers in Communism or Nazism.
Great Scott, good grief even , just where to begin with this utterly delusional load if horse manure.
Brexit was and still is a utter disaster, the facts Jim , the facts prove it
I know not all migration is from the EU, but it didnt help the remain cause when Chancellor Merkel welcomed them with open arms. It felt to many of those who voted Brexit like opening the floodgates.
I tried to explain in my first post why I think Brexiteers voted as they did and you called me a bigot. I didnt say I agreed with them and I did not personally attack anyone but you assumed that my opinion was different to yours and called me a bigot. The leave side kept going on about the points system for immigration, this gave those people who voted Brexit, that thought they were controlling immigration and not stopping immigration.
The point I was trying to make, is in order for Brexit to be reversed, it needs to be understood why Brexiteers voted as they did, but while their reasons are ignored and they are straight away labeled as thick and racist (as you do), it can only be expected that their attitudes will harden as demonstrated in 2019. Once their attitudes have hardened its very difficult to change them.
Once again you have made an assumption that I voted for Boris Johnson, the only one posting misinformation is you.
I wonder if you have heard of refugees Mark? And if you have wondered why they fled?
But let’s deal with your main accusation. You turn up here having never posted before and say I should have known you were presenting an argument you did not believe in, in support of which you p[oisted incorrect data, without qualification.
Pull the other one, please…..
And as Andrew has noted, your claims are pretty easily rebutted
But what you should have really noted is that those proposing Brexit had never tried to control migration in any serious way. Why did you fall for that?
Mark you make some interesting points including the fact those in political power who were putatively on the Remain side dealt with the immigration issue very poorly by pandering to deceits about immigration and proposing policy solutions which actually sustained the lies about immigration. This fed the narrative which ultimates proved decisive. The fact that EU immigration has now been replaced with immigration from Asia under visas issued by the Home Office shows just how untruthful the immigration narrative was.
However, when the refugee flood hit the EU and enormous numbers of “refugees” landed on Greek shores and otherwise made their way in vast numbers to and through EU borders, Germany, unilaterally, offered them a safe haven, while other countries ducked and dived about the issue. Germany with its massive manufacturing and organisational capacity, far from creating the immigration crisis, actually helped to resolve it. And of course Mrs Merkel also realised that Germany needed young migrants and was suffering from severe labour shortages. And the people they took in are settling well in Germany and are accessing employment. Strategic thinking of the highest order. And political courage.
The U.K. on the other hand did very little, refused to take part in the EU resettlement schemes and lectured others from the sidelines about their responsibilities. The U.K. did the exact same when the financial crisis hit Europe. Nothing. But Brexiteers made great play about the mistreatment of poor Greece while offering no solutions (except debt forgiveness which they would not contribute to) but it was the Eurozone that bailed out Greece and the Greeks, wise people that they are, stuck with the Euro.
The EU has flaws, some inevitable, just not the flaws cited by Brexiteers.
As an Irishman who had the distinct pleasure of working alongside many U.K. civil servants in different international fora over decades I struggle to restrain my disbelief at what I am witnessing. How did one of the most practical, sensible and admired nations in Europe come to this point? When I contemplate it all I feel a profound sense of cognitive dissonance. Nothing about it stacks up. And I also speak as a person who spend over 10 years working in the customs and excise on borders followed by a long spell in immigration so I know the technical aspects of the areas very well.
Thank you
Thank you John R. Believe me John, while England contains too many deluded idiots like Jim, and the rotten lying scoundrels who conned them into voting for this disaster, there are plenty of us who feel like you. English politics………God help us, its so awful.
And while I’m here, I’d just like to apologise for the all the rubbish you in Ireland have had to put up with from an English imposed Brexit.
I must say that Mark would be a Trump supporter if he was dwelling in The US.He is anti foreigners and a little Englander.I am waiting for the day that Johnson(Trump 2) is gone and we have a return to normalcy.Incidently nearly all that adviser Cummings came up with was true.Read the books about Brexit and the many Boris life stories.He has always been a selfish bastard.Look he is 23 years older than the blonde.It will not last and he will seek out an older party to take her place.
But Martin is complaining about having to raise the low end wages of his staff — in order to gain that supply of labour. By cutting Britain off from that central Europe reserve army of the unemployed the service sector in the UK will have to pay higher wages. This is what Martin is complaining about… Surely higher “low end “ wages is a very good thing? Indeed this is exactly why many “working class” communities voted for brexit
In healthcare the NHS relies massively on immigrant labour. The only difference now is that the Europeans are not coming , and many are returning home, to replaced by Asians . Personal experience in my own workplace is that many of the EU nationals were young and temporary and people who have hiked from Asia are here to stay. Quite the converse of what was intended.
On the main point, even the advocates of Brexit think we might have to wait 10 years or longer to see any benefit. I expect it will take at least that long to generate any kind of coherent “rejoin” movement, and probably another decade or two for it to bear fruit. But things may change quickly, so who knows. We may remember why we joined in the first place, because we do need them more than they need us.
Rees Mogg suggested 50 years – in a Keynesian ‘in the long run we’re all dead and so unaccountable moment
I think the return will be quicker
I dont think the UK will ever go back in the EU as a Westminster led union. Maybe piecemeal as its composite units. Too many people in England are opposed to the ‘corrupt EUSSR’ and too many people in Scotland want the advantages of European citizenship back for the two countries to remain an entity
Tim Martin in response to Telegraph article..
“I was trying to be helpful to the journalist by providing up-to-date anecdotal information on staffing, which clearly demonstrated a very positive situation for Wetherspoon. However, my comments were misreported. The false story, expressed in the headline “Wetherspoons boss calls for more EU migration as bars and restaurants tackle staff shortage” and expressed or implied elsewhere in the article, was that Wetherspoon was suffering staff shortages, which clearly isn’t true, and that I had subsequently been moved to change my stance on immigration, which, as my evidence to the parliament several ago clearly shows, isn’t true either.”
Looks like it was fake news…that said higher wages for low paid workers is a positive result of Brexit and the reason why large swathes of working class folk voted that way
Where is the evidence of higher pay?
Excepting minimum / living wage legislation that is? I have not seen it and no one I know has, so what have you got that supports your claim?
I like evidence
Richard
I know you’re not a proper economist, but surely you must have heard of the principles of supply and demand, and the implication on prices if supply increases?
I suggest you read Steve Keen
There are principles of supply and demand, for sure
And then there is the reality, which works nothing like the principles
Proper economists know that
The fantasy ones don’t
While others may disagree, and of course it was only part of the equation, it seems to me that had the UK Government applied the controls on EU migrants that it was entitled to, it would have ‘inhibited’ some of the worst excesses of the UK’s labour market.
That is correct John.
The Government of the day just did not bother.
I live in a rural area and I know that many wages offered are sub-minimum wage – I’ve even heard business owners openly boasting about it (one who was also a local Tory Councillor).
It’s because no one from Government who sets the minimum wage is actively checking or enforcing.
It’s policy by PR.
It fools people into thinking that something ahs been done.
HMRC have the job of enforcement
And they are not good at it
Nor are they resourced to do it
If that is the case it is disgraceful and redolent of wealthy American Republicans in states adjoining Mexico exploiting cheap illegals while demanding more be done to tackle illegals, just not their illegals. Allowing employers to deliberately undercut the legal minimum wage is deplorable. So is lack of enforcement. But one suspects the turning of the “blind eye”. That can only be political.
In Ireland, for example, there was a greater influx of Eastern European immigrants, proportionality speaking per head of population than in the U.K. But there was also enforcement of the law and vigorous Trade Union observation of the situation and support for those of whom advantage was taken. And where immigrants were exploited I have seen some substantial settlements when they were supported to take claims through the relevant state body.
There are few things more damaging to integration and acceptance in society than allowing immigrants to be exploited and permitting employers to undercut legal wage standards. Of course if you keep cutting public services there are few people to enforce these standards. So the question is who benefits from such a situation? The answer always is “follow the money”. No more need be said.