I am intrigued to see demands in Twitter this morning that I ‘own' Labour's election result. The implied suggestion is that I must have responsibility for it. That's a hard suggestion to make when I am not a member of the party, did not write the ideas that helped make Jeremy Corbyn its leader for him (if they were written for anyone it was Caroline Lucas), and in June 2016 I wrote an article in the Guardian suggesting Corbyn had not proved himself up to leading the party, for which the likes of Seumas Milne never forgave me. In addition, from March 2016, when it became very clear to me that Labour thought it could sit out the Brexit referendum, I have been deeply critical of the incoherence if its Brexit Policy. I never wavered on that, however unpopular it made me.
What does that leave me thinking this morning?
First, I am sure I was right about Corbyn. He's not the man he is portrayed to be by the media. But he's not a good Labour leader either. And let's be honest, no one thought he would take that role, including me. He did, but his popularity in the party was never capable of extending beyond it. He really should have gone in 2017. It was a massive mistake for him to stay having lost once. I hope he does go soon. His era is over. And he needs to take those immediately around him, who have done great harm, with him.
Second, Labour is right to say that it lost because of Brexit. It did. By forever fence-sitting it went nowhere. It had either to be Remain or be in favour of a very soft Brexit, which would have kept most of the seats it lost last night onside with it. Passionate as I am about Remain being the best option I have shown my willingness to compromise on this since 2016. Labour said it would do that in 2017. It did not in 2019. And people wanted Brexit over and done with. Labour failed them in this regard. They have punished it. Be under no illusion, no Labour leader would have won with this policy: it simply did not work. Much of that is down to Jeremy Corbyn, like it or not.
Third, whilst there were good things about Labour's manifesto there were many things that were just not relevant. Nationalisation is not that important, as I have said time and again, most especially when regulation could achieve the same result. And it created a massive distraction on cost. The freebies backfired too: apparently no one believed the free broadband offer, even if it was good policy. It came from nowhere and it seemed too good to be true. It turned out it was. Some of the tax policy was also not well enough thought through. There was no need to discuss the married allowance, for example, and it was a gift to the Tories. The 10% of shares in companies was also a step too far, and no one really thought they would win with it.
Fourth, what all these issues suggest was a lack of focus on what was really important. There were three issues. Norway + might have done Brexit, with an option to return built-in. The NHS, education and other public services had to be protected. And benefits had to be sorted. After that little else needed to be said. If the Tories have proved anything it is less is more. But Labour has not got there. Not by a long way.
As I said in the June 2016 Guardian article:
If I was not an idealist I would not have created the ideas that Corbyn borrowed from me. And if I was not a pragmatist I would not be writing now. My appeal at this moment is for Labour to embrace these two positions simultaneously. That is because whatever Labour's pragmatic need might be it must be infused with a new sense of idealism. If not it is wasting its time and those fighting its internal wars will end up with the prize of perpetual irrelevance.
That is its reward right now. Instead of being in politics to make a difference for people far too many have been in Labour to point score. That is why I have never been tempted in. It is instead why I have been issue focussed, where I have felt (and still do feel) I can make a difference.
So what does Labour need now? It certainly does not need neoliberalism. And it does not need austerity light. But to go back to that June 2016 article again, I said of Corbyn:
And last, he has not shown the ability to accommodate those who think along other lines, which all leadership requires. I fear that suggestions that a bunker mentality was created around the leader's office are correct.
Unless Labour can break this then it has no chance. It has made significant mistakes. And most were because it kept forgetting to put those it was meant to represent at the heart of its purpose. Until it does it will not win power. Forget the infighting. Forget the blame. Forget the dogma, per se. All that matters is having the policies that work. And Labour offered too many that for far too many voters could not work, whether those in Labour thought them desirable or not. The cost is to those on whom Labour depends. And that's what matters.
I live in hope. But not much this morning. I fear the infighting, the blaming the media, the fights over anti-semitism and so much more will continue when what matters is core policy that works based on a pragmatic politics of compassionate concern. I wish we had it. But right now, I'm not sure. What I do know is that we have a government that does not care instead.
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There will be those who supported Corbyn that will be desperately wanting a new leader to build upon Corbyn’s belief and passion for a better future with radical economics.
There will be those who opposed Corbyn from day one who will be arguing for a return to Blairite style centrism, and will describe Corbyn’s economic ambitious as being ‘student politics’ and economic day dreaming.
Corbyn invigorated many with his ambitious and radical ideas. His vision for society was not one that was tempered by the need to conform to the status quo and to occupy centre ground. He was elected by accident at a time when many were so despondent with the abject lack of ambition and vision from his predecessors.
But, clearly, he alienated more people than he won over. He was too easy to smear, and he was too weak in defending himself. He never managed to maintain a strong polling position at any point in his leadership, he was always the underdog.
I don’t know where Keir Starmer stands economically, but he does have the manner of someone that could convince people to vote for him.
David Miliband also has the same characteristic. But he personifies the warmongering, unambitious, austerity-lite centrism that got us into this situation. Starmer at least has kept his nose clean and could appeal to a broader base in the party and the country.
Make no mistake, the centre ground does not exist. Labour can’t just re-position themselves and do Blairism mk2. The Tories aren’t in the centre ground. They’re now somewhere between centre and far right authoritarianism. Labour’s new leader needs to:
i) clearly demonstrate convincing leadership. when they talk, people listen.
ii) offer an ambitious, radical (and credible) vision for economic and societal reform (no more austerity lite)
iii) appeal to working class people in forgotten areas. Labour has to recognise the political reality of the situation we’re in, and not just pretend/wish it were different, like it did with Brexit.
I agree
There is no centre
All the ex party members who stood discovered that
Kier Starmer and David Miliband will never appeal to the voters in the Red Wall we need to win back. They are clearly fed up of London-based (New York-based in Miliband’s case) ardent Remainers telling them what’s good for them. Starmer was one of the key people behind pushing Labour into their second referendum stance.
Labour needs at least a northern leader, ideally one with the same level of dedication to campaigning for them as Corbyn was. I’m not too sure any of the current candidates have the latter, but Angela Rayner seems to be the best of the bunch. Nobody knows who Lisa Nandy is, Jess Phillips has poisoned the membership against her with her constant backstabbing, and Rebecca Long-Bailey doesn’t strike me as having the profile, even if she is Corbyn’s preferred choice as successor.
I am steering clear of this debate
I am not a Labour member
“It had either to be Remain or be in favour of a very soft Brexit, which would have kept most of the seats it lost last night onside with it. Passionate as I am about Remain being the best option I have shown my willingness to compromise on this since 2016.”
It became almost impossible to push soft Brexit due to the People’s Vote campaign getting their claws into the shadow cabinet. I actually think Corbyn did well to hold out a long as he did and the Labour poll drop happened immediately after they moved towards Remain. It was always clear that Labour Leave voters held great electoral value than Labour Remain supporters yet there was no great effort to hold onto them. Tragic.
The People’s Vote campaign will go as one of the great political disasters. It focused completely on destabilising the one party who could deliver a soft Brexit and poured petrol onto the flames of a culture war which alienated many Leave voters. I’m sure Roland Rudd and his backers will extremely happy with the outcome.
@SB
“The People’s Vote campaign will go as one of the great political disasters. It focused completely on destabilising the one party who could deliver a soft Brexit and poured petrol onto the flames of a culture war which alienated many Leave voters. I’m sure Roland Rudd and his backers will extremely happy with the outcome.”
Agreed. So obsessed with attacking Labour, despite being told repeatedly that the Labour Leave vote was very fragile, and would desert Labour to vote for BREXIT.
They only saw the oncoming car at the last moment, and scrabbled to get out of the way, by backing Labour’s renegotiation followed by 2nd Referendum proposal.
Too late! Shooting themselves in the foot is too kind a description – you can recover from that. You can’t recover from jumping off a cliff.
What is truly astonishing is that Johnson has won by a landslide, when he clearly showed he was a coward, ducked every challenge, was shown to be a liar, and generally accepted to be a racist, sexist and homophobe.
True he had all the media, including the BBC, outrageously and flagrantly on his side.
But even so, to lose against so obviously flawed an individual, who WILL hand over the 44 NHS HMO (Health Management Organisations) to American management companies, waiting in the wings to do so, by the end of 2020, takes some doing.
Yes, Corbyn has been massively, and unfairly, smeared, but I’m afraid I gave to concur with your judgement here, that he should have stood down in 2017. And your critique of the Manifesto as OTT is reflected in comments I have read.
Had he had the BREXIT policy in 2017 that he stood on in 2019, he might have won, as his “bringing both sides together” was, and is, the right approach, where Johnson’s Right approach treats the 2016 Referendum result as 100-0, and depicts us Remainers as “non-people”, even “public enemies”.
I am fearful of the public enemy status
Quite literally so
@ Richard
Very well said. I fear that Labour will regress back to Neoliberalism and all that comes with it.
I fear there is no way back for the United Kingdom now after this election. Labour is now dead in the water in Scotland – one MP!
THAT is the legacy of the Blair years.
In Scotland there is no option left for those who envisaged a fairer and progressive society across the whole of the UK. Those voters are caught between the Nationalists in the North and those in the South. Like Yugoslavia, we are falling apart.
I honestly do not know where we go from here.
You are not alone
This morning (mourning?) at work a number of bleary eyed staff have come to me wanting to talk about the result and not wishing to burden their Tory voting colleagues. It has been very sad seeing these hopeful people hurt and my position as ‘sympathetic listener’ has also made me reflect on a few things so I will come here to offload them if I may.
1) The science of politics has changed. Not the messages – if you repeat lies often enough (Labour bankrupting the country; Corbyn a terrorist) – people will still believe them, that is all still true. No, the delivery of those lies is now much more personalised – that is what has changed, and the more personalised delivery is, the less debate and dissent there is. A big sarcastic ‘thanks’ to the internet for that.
2) Our democracy has not kept up with the science of politics, how politics is delivered to those who vote. Democracy is now weak in my view and open to abuse like never before. None of the lessons we learnt from the referendumb have been reflected on or learnt from in the conduct of this election. What we just did was the proxy BREXIT referendumb vote all over again, that is all. That is shocking to me. We have learnt nothing from 2016.
3) Corbyn. Well, Polly Toynbee has gone off on one this morning hasn’t she? Corbyn has effectively been undermined by his own MPs, too many of whom did not accept his leadership – I can remember the Syria vote in particular making him look isolated and weak. As a result, a coterie of Corbynistas/Momentum – a faction against the Corbyn Rejectionists which is itself a faction – was formed and before you know it you have a politburo that increasingly became distanced from the wider and parliamentary party. And stopped listening to people like Richard Murphy. Also, I cannot think of a Labour politician who has had his character assassinated as much as this one. It is OK for Johnson to kick out moderates in his party and pick on minorities but not OK for the Labour party apparently. Double standards abound.
4) The Labour Party. Not only riven by divisions about BREXIT (see later), but unable to unify and present a united front, content to bicker amongst themselves whilst professing to care about those not on £80K plus expenses a year. Voters don’t like to see bickering parties or politicians because it is self-indulgent. The lack of unity in Labour has hobbled it continuously. It’s not a good look. Even though the Tories have had their own centrifugal forces to deal with, they have very quickly reformed and got on with it and reopened for business.
5) BREXIT. Is Cameron really that stupid? Perhaps not. BREXIT has been the ultimate divide and conquer has it not? We were divided when we went into Europe . The fault line has always been there. It has divided the political parties too (a free vote!) and especially the Labour vote. This whole election is about that really. Even many Remainers accept the result now and think we should just get on with it. Johnson has replaced his BREXIT dissenters with hard core Be-Leavers. Job done maybe? Labour and the Lib Dems should have said no to a GE. They walked into a trap.
6) The Failure of Progressives: I reserve most of my ire not for Labour or Corbyn but the simple fact that those professing to offer so-called progressive policies seem unable to work together for the good of the country they profess to care about. The Lib Dems in particular would rather object to Corbyn (like they did with Brown in 2010) and play silly games like that, than offer some form of progressive vanguard to steer the country away from disaster. The SNP hasn’t been very warm either. Too much self-interest has dominated any possible joined-up opposition bulwark against the Tories. It’s lack is a constant source of irritation and bemusement to me. It is perhaps the single biggest failure in this whole episode. The single biggest political failure caused by the personalities involved and yet more evidence as to how far removed politicians increasingly are from the public. PR cannot come fast enough.
7) The Labour Manifesto. A voting public brought up on the lie that New Labour bankrupted the country (aided by that now infamous smoking post it note in 2010) and still clinging to Thatcher’s ‘Government as a household’ trope can only be expected to look upon the election offer as desirable (sure – they WANT that stuff) but risible (but how do you pay for it?). The lack of knowledge about what is possible with a courageous state – even though the state used more money than that promised in the manifesto to bail out the banks and also the printing of a bung for the DUP – is still a blind spot for the voting public. This blind spot is a tragedy that is only going to get worse.
8) New Labour. Maybe – just like we use a word to describe the phenomenon of bringing in Nazism into conversations – we need a word to describe this? Sorry but the New Labour legacy lives on. Blair’s chasing of swing voters meant that heartland voters were taken for granted by Labour for far too long. And it seems that Corbyn’s Labour should have listened to those areas that had been won over by BREXIT. All Labour had to do was to say that we would leave with a deal. Instead, they over complicated it and tried to appeal to Remainers – trying to face both ways at once. Labour’s only chance is to re-engage with those it has left behind. And it’s a long way back.
There are other issues of course – the alleged anti Semitism seems to have stuck too despite being unjustified in my view – just part of the anti-Corbyn milieu. But the other thing that strikes me is just how politically orthodox we actually are now as a society? There is definitely a failure of much needed imagination at work here amongst politicians and voters alike. Is it that hard to envisage something better?
Unable to envision a life outside of orthodoxies such as austerity, isolationism, punitive and one-sided trade deals, further and permanent retrenchment of the public services and ingrained poverty, British society faces becoming like the mythical Greek character Ixion, fated to be tied for eternity to a burning wheel – this time the burning wheel is Neo-liberal authored fascism.
Thanks.
Time for a weekend to reflect PSR
I am planning one…
Yes – reflection indeed.
One thing I know for sure – I’ve had enough of our media circus. I’m going to make a conscious to stop listening to it.
I’ll make a last post on this for the weekend – many neglected items to attend to. Though i am certain that the austerity will come to a crashing halt now they will get their Hard brexit and are free of EU oversight. It will be to reward and condition these electorates against social democracy in the future. Helk they’ll prob retain free movement- who else will build the new rail tracks and ‘Hospitals’ they may even cancel the licence fee – we know they have always had a money tree. Thanks prof.
Scotland — good luck with your continued bid for independence.
For us-
Expect a proper dissection of the changing seats when I and others get around to it.
The Labour wall didn’t collapse just because Lab voters all suddenly voted Tory.
There were other spoilers besides Brexit party — look at Ashfield/ Bassetlaw etc the NuLab zombies did their bit to stuff their erstwhile Labour party.
LibDems did their bit such as in London with ChukkaU and Sam G and miss moneypants ran cover campaigns with full media (LBC) support, to takeLab votes and let/kept Tories in.
This kind of spoilering along with dog whistle racism (can you IMAGINE Dianne? — look at dem gangsta grime yoof.., Corbyn the muslim lover …) AND ballot RIGGING using postal votes, GUARANTEED a labour defeat.
Here are the top 3 comments from the vote tory plastered Mail main article yesterday to show how the donkeys were led by the nose back to the cliff edge and then encouraged to jump.
1.st
Posh14a, Alfreton, United Kingdom, 1 day ago
Prayer for today. Please God save us from Corbyn. Amen
13,000 likes
2nd.
Steve, Bridgend, 1 day ago
‘Braving the weather ??? I”d walk over broken Glass to keep Corbyn away from number 10. !!’
10,500 likes
3rd
SlowDeath, None, United Kingdom, 1 day ago
The NHS is struggling because of mass immigration and that is down to Blair.
9,600 likes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7784125/Election-2019-Boris-Johnson-voters-cast-ballot.html?offset=2755&max=100&jumpTo=comment-491718413#comments-7784125
See ?
Many of us aren’t so easily fooled.
It is exactly reminiscent of 83.
It kicked off the big attacks on society after the austerity of mass unemployment, a jingoistic war. But what won it for them was the proto NuLabourites -the SDP — without whom Thatcher would not have got a second term.
These who remember will not forget the creation of the first national police force state in this country to fight the miners and unions.
We won’t forget that led to eventual resistance in the poll tax riots via anti-apartheid and various other causes including Greenham Common and womens lib movements,
ALL starting with the RACE riots.
Yeah. That.
The tory voting Glasto loving monied classes forget the free festivals that originated their Yurty playpens of fun. Some probably used to be these anarcho hippy types!
The moral corruption is advanced.
BUT…
Corbynism has succeeded in politizing a whole new generation of young — as we were in the 80’s — and boy I tell you, we are not going to let them carry the fight by themselves, for their emancipation causes and we won’t let them be railroaded by the next SDP/NuLabInc clones whose apparatchiks betrayed the movement with their visceral hatred of little socialist Jeremy, because they are so deluded by the presidential model of governance.
And we won’t let it take another generation to rise.
The Empire struck back but that just means a bigger battle is on its way.
But not right now — there is tea to be drunk, EU citizens to console and xmas to be had — then watch out — think the poll tax protests were bad? watch what happens when the HARD brexit approaches in January.
Things are gonna get… interesting.
We’ll see
I don’t sense that anger, yet
I agree.
What I sense at the moment is shock. Even amongst those who voted Tory. It’s as if the latter were in their own little bubble when they voted. Honestly – I think the Tory victory has yet to sink in, but it is.
The one thing that will surely come of this is that the Tories will have to own the shitshow that Brexit is likely to become. I’m less than convinced that Johnson has the spine to stand up to the rabid Brexiteers of the ERG (unless he gets a special fridge i which to hide from them) and I don’t doubt that many of the new Tory candidates elected to parliament are of th ERG ilk. As Richard notes, literally all that Johnson cares about is himself. Cameron said he wanted to be Prime Minister because he thought he’d be quite good at it. Johnson wanted to be Prime Minister just to become Prime Minister. I don’t get any impression that he has a direction other than whatever is easiest to keep him in that role. It all rather depends on what he’s told to do.
I fully expect the ‘othering’ of the EU to accelerate from now onwards. I also expect that we will depart the transition period with a pretty hard Brexit (i.e. no EU free trade deal and without proper customs systems fully in place) and, if so, it will certainly be portrayed as entirely the fault of those dastardly Europeans. How dare they care more about the integrity of the EU and their single market after we’ve gone? We’ll no doubt get plenty of Brexiteers claiming that the general continuation of the status quo after the transition period begins prove that ‘Project Fear’ was just a lie. Many ardent Brexiteers wouldn’t know (or care about) the truth if it kicked them up the backside when it comes to the holy grail that is Brexit.
As for Corbyn, I do sort of agree that it would have been best if he’d gone after 2017 but really, who was there to replace him? The Blairite era followed by the weak showing during the coalition years have hollowed out any great politicial talent from the Labour Party and we were and are left with pygmies. The endless attacks on Corbyn from the Blairite rump – often more vicious than those from other parties – provided just too much ammunition for the right as did the endless recycling of the mostly confected (IMO) anti-semitism trope. Also claims of him being a Commie/Marxist just don’t make sense when you look at his policies.
I see that Jess Phillips is now considered one of the front runners for Labour Party leader. If I was a Tory, this is exactly the type of a politician I would want to replace Corbyn. Without looking back too closely, she seems to me to have spent as much time attacking Corbyn as the Tories. Ashworth is surely finished for his stupidity, that is if he wasn’t actually in on the scheme to leak that phone call. Thornberry too divisive already though I think many of the attacks she has faced are misogynistic in nature. I suppose Starmer is probably the favoured candidate in the current climate, though it is going to be an unforgiving job for whoever takes on the role.
Finally, the LibDems. What are they for, other than to put the Tories into power and then keep them there?
The biggest worry is that this election has shown that the ‘Trump Playbook’ works worryingly effectively over here. Shamelessly tell a lie, keep telling it, deny it’s a lie, get the friendly media to back you up whilst promulgating your own lies about the opposition. The Tories are always going to have a lot more money to spend and this is just going to pay for more lies.
Pilgrim wrote: “The SNP hasn’t been very warm either. Too much self-interest has dominated any possible joined-up opposition bulwark against the Tories. It’s lack is a constant source of irritation and bemusement to me. It is perhaps the single biggest failure in this whole episode.”
Look at it from another perspective: SNP’s raison d’etre is to deliver independence for Scotland, not to prop up or facilitate a Labour campaign. All Labour had to do to get greater support from the SNP was promise to grant the transfer of S30 powers to enable a referendum on Scotland’s future if Labour were to win the election. Instead flat-out refusals and wooly responses were given, with Corbyn’s team in London and the Scottish Branch leader Richard Leonard frequently contradicting each other. Helping Labour was never going to be an SNP priority without a quid pro quo on Independence.
As it turns out none of this matters and Labour’s plight results from issues of leadership, policy, PR etc — in other words internal matters which need to be addressed urgently as it has to be more effective in opposition now than it has been in the last decade.
So Ken you are basically agreeing with me – party self interest was put before the country or the union.
May I also say that as much as I understand the reasons for Scottish independence, I do not favour it. Countries becoming smaller and being broken up is not a good idea as we go into a climate and resource crisis to match.
I do not think that it is wrong to expect more – from the SNP or anyone else.
Identity politics?! In the future there will be only one identity for all of us – ENDANGERED. We need to work together – not split. For goodness sake…………………………
Ask yourself a simple question
If you were Scottish, would you?
I did a long time ago re Ireland
I cannot deny anyone else
Pilgrim says I’m “…agreeing with him — party self interest was put before the country or the union.”
A lot depends on which country you mean: SNP’s view is that it put Scotland’s interests ahead of the UK’s interests and that’s how I see it too. Scotland is a different country with different history and traditions, different laws, different languages and culture so it’s national interests will naturally differ and take precedence over the interests of other countries. Of course party interests are involved – SNP is a political part, but so is Labour and I find it odd that you would criticise one party for prioritising its party interests simply because they do not support the party interests of another party in another country.
I know you’ll say we’re all one country, the UK, and that might have some weight if the UK were really a union of equals. History, especially recent history, shows that it is not an equal union and that the UK Gov has total control of all matters, including those supposedly devolved to Scotland. But the Scotland Act gives the UK Gov the power to alter or reverse any of the provisions of the Scotland Act at any time and without consulting the Scottish Gov. It’s this political vacuum which has driven the rise of the SNP and the broader Indy movement. Devolution was only ever a sop to keep the uppity Jocks in their place. All power must remain in Westminster.
The Johnson Tory Government is sensibly viewed as an existential threat to Scotland by many Scots. They tried to convince us we were North Britain, not Scotland, in the 19th century and it smells very like a rerun from where we’re sitting.
And you’re now the only effective opposition for some time to come
Aurghhhhh! That was a disheartening experience to say the least. 🙁
As has been laid out, it is important to continue the battle and move forward with the appropriate sentiment on how to deal with the issues this has raised. Fundamentally, there was nothing wrong with the Labour campaign, but when the opponent was so heavily funded and is happy to go to any lengths of depravity to win, there is not a huge amount that could have been done without stooping to their degraded tactics.
This is a victory for ignorance, corruption and fear; it is akin to watching Russia win nearly half the Olympic gold medals on offer and everyone turning a blind eye to their doping antics. (if the western press is to be believed!)
We now have a country governed by a (basket of expletives) with a mandate to continue a path of self interested nest feathering and social destruction.
For the nearly 34 million (71%) of the electorate that did not vote for BoJob and his unworthies, there is a common bond that unites us and it is unlikely that many will be won over the Tory’s behavior to come.
The real battle is not with a semi competent PM, but a corporate media machine that dictates who is allowed to run the country, hence effort should be directed into providing truth, enlightenment and reason to the nation that is not tainted by the interests of a very narrow minority.
It would be offensive to echo the calls for Jeremy Corbyn’s resignation, as this purely plays into the hands of the media, treating him like a premier league football manager that has been appointed for a very narrow purpose. Corbyn has changed the face of politics for the good and has earned a role in any future direction.
But critically, it is also the state of the ‘democratic’ process in the UK which deserves scrutiny, as the system that has yielded this result is obviously not fit for purpose. Surely it is time to have an electronic voting system (as many countries do already), and some long overdue electoral reform, to help re-engage some of the 34 million people who now feel unrepresented!
Regarding the comment about electronic voting systems, I am very much against. Too easy to hack, especially if the machines are just left around as they seem to be in the US. If the machines also leave a paper trail which can be checked and are absolutely nailed down security wise, then it perhaps wouldn’t be as bad. However, history shows that this rarely occurs. Note, not paranoia here – my degree is in computer science and I’ve seen too many stories about systems with gaping security holes over the years.
Richard & Ken
No, no – look, don’t tar me with the same brush as the anti-independence brigade as far as Scotland is concerned. My comments here have always reflected what I have seen as an shamefully abusive relationship with Westminster with ALL the regions of this ‘country’. If the Scots think they have it bad – Northern Ireland and the unacceptable suspension of Stormont is even worse. The Tories lack of care is even more self evident and extreme there and English racism more pronounced. There NHS from what I have gathered has actually collapsed.
However – back to Scotland. Put simply, even though I am of Scottish blood, I am not Scottish. So why the question? I see both sides. Sorry! I maintain that the disaggregation of the Union is just going to create more trouble and strife from an increasingly hostile England. It will not be easy and it will not be nice. Remind yourselves who you will be dealing with, over the next 10 years at least.
And here we are in a world under threat from a rising fascism? Environmental catastrophe? And Scotland wants to break away? What are you going to do – dynamite just above Hadrian’s wall and break away from mainland Britain and get tugs to pull you 50 miles apart closer to Europe to create a border?
As I have said about BREXIT: the best time (if ever there was one) to leave a union or treaty is when the times are good. In terms of BREXIT, times are not good, we have not recovered from 2008; we have had stupid austerity making it worse. And now we see Scotland wanting to leave the Union. I just do not think it a good idea at this moment in time. And I agree that Common Wheal has done a great job at making possible (I forget the gentleman’s name who has done a lot of good work). But you are going to be dealing with some of the worst politicians in the history of the United Kingdom. I’m sure it is OK for me to point this out, is it not?
Or is this about individualistic identity politics again ignoring the reality of geo-politics and all the other relevant politics going on around it?
In reality Scotland is going nowhere. Even if it went independent, Scotland is still going to be where it has always been, the same longitude and latitude; dealing with the same racist, unprincipled bastards at Whitehall and Westminster on its doorstep.
Just like we say about BREXIT, leaving is the just the beginning? Yes? YES! Or is this the start of Scottish exceptionalism? I hope not – for your sakes – not mine!
Edward Longshanks (‘The Hammer of the Scots’ alas) is not dead. His ghost lives on in British rule even today. Be careful. This election should instruct you on just what lengths a toxic British Government will go to to get what it wants within its own borders.
RUK can’t constrain Scotland
It will be dependent on it for power
And it is not responsible for rUK Debt
But what you ignore is the simplevrelease if energy being independent will release
John Lansmann defended Momentum on the same basis Richard when Alan Johnson (the ex-Postman and failed shadow chancellor) was moaning about them on election night – that Momentum released a lot of energy!
Hmm – look , I’m not ignoring anything. I’m just worried about it that’s all. The future is going to be very competitive rather than co-operative. To see Scotland fail would be awful; to see it have to have a fire sale of its assets in such circumstance or to come away with a bad deal from the UK or have Westminster and our media harrying it. But also, because Scotland might not have the right people in the right place at the right time. I’m not painting Scotland as incapable but it has its own complement of bad politicians just like we do, and a Tory rump up there who might cause trouble.
I won’t say anything more on the subject except to say that I would be happy if my worries were completely unfounded. I hope so.
I hope so too
I see smaller nations
They work
All this talk of compromise is lovely in the abstract. But I don’t really feel like the right of the party and the PLP want to compromise with the more left-wing membership. They only want a broad church if they get to be in the pulpit. I feel like they want us either completely subordinated as silent dues payers, or preferably purged. They call us things like “cultists”. They thought we were “Trotskyist entryists”. They made colossal mountains out of the molehill of ubiquitous and omnidirectional twitter rudeness (as if they weren’t just as rude to and about us).
Compromise takes two sides willing to compromise. It takes trust. They don’t want to compromise with us, and we don’t trust them.
I have to say, I fully expect the Labour right to win the battle now now, I expect Momentum members to be expelled, and I expect to find myself probably voting green at the next election. I hope that expectation is wrong, but I’m not holding my breath.