Over the last few years I have spent quite a lot of time in Europe because of my involvement in the Horizon 2020 academic research Coffers project. I am in Brussels today.
It's been interesting to observe the change of mood on Brexit. Three years ago it was bemusement. The question was 'why did anyone believe the Leavers?'
Then is was bafflement. 'Is anything actually happening?'
That was followed by 'You can't be serious?' when it became clear that it was really believed possible to have the cake and eat it.
And now? The questions seem to be over. Instead 'You've blown it' seems to be the prevailing sentiment.
The argument is a simple one. It goes along the lines of 'Once upon a time you in the UK could be relied upon to be the people to solve any problem. Now nothing seems possible for you.' But the sting is in the tail: 'And we don't see any sign of tht changing.'
Our credibility is shot.
The idea that the Scottish, Irish and even Welsh would be well rid of England appears widespread. Only a reboot and rebrand will work. But for the English? They're a lost cause.
As an exercise in brand management Brexit has been a disaster. The UK has lost all credibility. And it is seen as a very peculiarly English problem.
The Horizon 2020 project comes to a close very soon. The harm to the UK does not. That's for the long term. And there's very little we can do about it now.
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I’m surprised people ever saw UK as reliable problem-solvers. They must mean on a small scale like de-scaling a kettle. Not like inequality, discrimination, oppression, imperialism, sexism, warmongering and so on, where we excel in creating problems instead. If they’re thinking of politicians as problem-solvers they must be thinking of a different parliament than Westminster or indeed any that exist on earth. Unless they think that prior to 2016 uk-wise everything was hunky-dory. Which is possibly somewhat deluded.
Helen Jones says:
“I’m surprised people ever saw UK as reliable problem-solvers.”
Long memories (folk memory perhaps) and effective UK propaganda (self praise is no recommendation, but it works in PR terms) regarding our formerly esteemed diplomatic service prowess ?
Maybe the Europeans are just struggling to say something, (anything) ‘kind’ about us ?
I agree with you Andy.
There has been a long-standing form of British exceptionalism in existence for a long time.
In my view it got worse after we lost a lot of the old Empire after WWII.
We should be called ‘The United Cling-dom’ because all we’ve done is clung to the past. We liked the past because we were in charge (and we were for a time).
We didn’t really like the European project because it wasn’t our idea – we did not derive ultimate power from it – power had to be shared. For the English Absolutists in our midst, they just can’t handle it.
A lot of the stuff here that I have identified resides in the Establishment – the upper echelons of our society including Westminster.
There is therefore an awful tendency to blame the lower social orders for our losses by those at the top – I cannot explain the punitive social policies we’ve had dropped on us in my 55 years on the planet any other way.
It’s our fault apparently and also those nasty Europeans (look at the shite in ‘Britannia Unchained). But in reality it is the Establishment that has failed to adapt this country to the new realities. It is just too hard for them and technically they should be removed.
Pilgrim Slight Return says:
“We didn’t really like the European project because it wasn’t our idea”….and when we eventually did join they wouldn’t let us be in charge 🙂
So now we are wanting to take our bat home…… sad.
I was sitting in a very boring meeting in Brussels recently about energy (gas). The guy runing the meeting was british – & has the tendancy to speak very very slowly (possibly to hide his own limitations). Anyway, the chap next to me (Belgian – he knows me well) remarked “you know Mike – it is at times like this that I welcome Brexit” – with the implication that the numbskull at the front will be gone (unlikely – sadly). We both sniggered.
In my own experience in mainland Europe people deal with you/do business with you on the basis of what you have to say & is it worth listening to.
I’m comfortable with that. Indeed, this attitude seems to extend to many other countries.
Sadly, one country where this attitdue does not apply & where background (school/uni etc) still seems to count for a great deal, is the UK
& could be one of the reasons the Uk is where it is.
Agreed
Indeed.
European leaders, whether political, institutional or business, aren’t sensitive to accents or school background.
They’ve dealt with the UK for decades without caring about the backgrounds of people like Wilson, Callaghan, Thatcher, Major, Brown, May, or any other not upper-class but well educated Grammar school PM or other partners.
A ‘nice’ Etonian voice has no effect on them whatsoever.
What will have an effect is whether the person in front of them can communicate clearly or not, has knowledge of his/her subject or not, can hold a well prepared and argued position or not. A pro, in short.
They clearly hadn’t widely experienced or been subjected to a wave of ignorant lazy incompetent nasty entitled posh brats yet though.
Richard is right about his perception of how Europeans have changed their attitudes over Brexit Britain these last 4 years.
Like him, I spend a few months each year travelling in Europe, more so in France but other countries too, meeting many people who are usually (still!) Anglophiles.
From sad bewilderment to irritated impatience, tainted with disappointment that the country they were introduced to as cool and gutsy had turned into a mop made in Trump-land at the moment.
Reputation has been very badly damaged, and some may think forever….but I think there’s still enough potential creativity and positive energy in the UK to mend the damage, it’s not over yet, it won’t be the same, there’ll be a stain, but it’ll pass.
There’s plenty to still love here, once things get mended. They need to be.
This “very peculiarly English problem” has its origins in Churchill’s “We shall fight them on the beaches…” speech of June 1940:
“I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.”
Using the language of “take back control”, “take control of our borders, money and laws”, and “remove the shackles of the EU” the Brexiteers have recast Churchill’s defiant and very necessary declaration in the modern era, and the intent, very clearly, is to be “alone”. It took them more than a century, but many English people, perhaps a majority, have discovered the joy and ecstasy of Sinn Fein (“just ourselves” or “ourselves alone”).
And, of course, we have the usual left-wing useful idiots stirring the pot:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/24/eu-workers-rights-capital-multinationals
Those supporting Brexit have gone beyond the point where, a la David Hume, reason is the slave of passion; reason has now been obliterated by passion.
Paul Hunt – Larry Elliot raised some valid point in his Guardian artilcle of 24/10/19.
Which bit is “left wing idiocy”?
I have to say I didn’t buy all Larry had to say
He was too one sided
@Bill Hughes,
The UK, Germany, France and Italy comprise 54% of the population of the EU. What they say, depending on the complexions of their governments (and the extent to which their governments are engaged), usually goes. By virtue of their heft, these advanced economies have set mimimum rights and standards which the less advanced member-states are required to meet. But every member-state is entitled to exceed these minima. Inevitably, right-of-centre governments will seek to water down these rights and to prevent the enforcement of higher standards. It is a continuous battle.
And the EU is far from perfect, but it far, far better than any conceivable alternative. Larry Elliott never misses an opportunity to have a swipe at the EU in pursuit of his Lexit agenda. This is just another example. It is also a subtle dig at Jeremy Corbyn and his neo-Stalinist acolytes, fearful of the overwhelming Remain sentiment of the younger activists who propelled him to the leadership, as they scrabble around looking for reasons to maintain alignment with the EU – and they finally landed on workers’ and environmental rights. But it is totally self-defeating, because it just gives more ammunition to the Brexiteers who will claim that the EU will continue imposing requirements against the will of the British people and parliament.
I am with you on this one
I like Larry, and we see each other not infrequently. But on this issue we will always disagree.
“I have to say I didn’t buy all Larry had to say”
Oh dear…….. and he’s been doing so well lately. 🙁
Re: Lexit.
I am fully prepared to accept that a reasoned Lexit argument can be advanced. And it resonates widely among many Labour members and supporters. But it is wrong-headed on a number of grounds. Frequently it is argued that EU rules on fiscal policy, procurement, state aid and competition will prevent the implementation of key elements of Labour proposed policy programme. But these constraints are more imagined than real when one consider the wide range of policies and institutional arrangements being implemented member-states.
In addition the rules change and there is broad shift across Europe from the centre-right to the centre-left that will drive changes. Portugal has a left-of-centre government, as has Spain (and it is likely to be re-elected with more seats and in coalition with the sensible faction that has split from Podemos). The situation is similar in Italy, Sweden and Denmark. Macron entered politics via the Socialists and tries to govern from the centre. Merkel has nearly obliterated the SPD by moving leftwards and the German zero fiscal deficit policy is in tatters. Governments in Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg are centrist and pragmatic.
Labour’s place is with the other European governing and opposition parties in the Alliance of Socialists and Democrats forcing the pace on changing EU rules and policies. Socialism in one country is a dangerous myth. It is sad that Corbyn and his neo-Stalinist acolytes have been so fixated on the perceived virtues of anti-western forces in developing countries, that they view the progressive forces under their noses on the continent as capitalist fellow-travellers. But he probably can’t change now.
You’re so right. I’ve been ‘arguing’ this for a while. It’s been incredibly damaging for our valuable ‘soft power’ (intangible assets?). In an historical context I see it as yet another milestone in the decline of Empire – possibly on a par with Suez. English exceptionalism will die not with a bang but a miserable whimper. What’s especially bizarre is that the project has been mismanaged from beginning to end by the political party most associated with commercial culture. You’d have thought it would/could have called on the requisite expertise from our world-class marketing agencies and business schools. Perhaps those most qualified to advise are opposed to Brexit, hence did not offer their services. It will certainly go down as one of the biggest fails in the annals of marketing.
They were once the party of business, but they have been consumed by neo-liberalism. And neo-liberalism, eventually, eats the very foundations of society upon which it thrives. It is a parasitical economic model which continually moves onto the nearest and easiest lunch, eventually killing the host. Neo-liberal capitalism has given up on trying to build a future and advance us. That thinking is incompatible with its rationale, and the UK has gone full-on rentier. Readers of this blog will of course understand that neo-liberalism does not equal real business or entrepreneurialism, and in many respects is its enemy.
As much as I can berate my fellow Englishman ( I find comfort in viewing myself as a Scot on loan because my fathers side of the family heralded from there & Mum’s family was from Ireland originally) all I see in my adopted country is oppression.
Economic oppression.
Cultural oppression.
Class oppression.
Political oppression.
I think that Uncle Monty (Withnail & I) summed it up nicely:
“Oh my boys, my boys, we are at the end of an age! We live in a land of weather forecasts and breakfasts that set in, shat on by Tories, shovelled up by Labour, and here we are, we three; perhaps the last island of beauty… in the world.”
For any country who can produce a film like this, there must still be hope. But either way the shitting and the shovelling has to stop. We need a new political settlement, a new system, a new politics, to deal with old and new problems. This lot with one or two notable exceptions are just not up to the job.
RIP Richard Griffiths.
History boys?
Yes – he was the rather fruity teacher in the History Boys Richard but his rendition of Uncle Monty in Withnail & I is in my view his finest moment on screen.
What a character study that was – you can hardly envision a world WITHOUT an Uncle Monty, so believable and well realised the character was.
🙂
My all time favourite movie
“If I spike you you’ll know you’ve been spoken to”
Fact is we are going to have to reach the bottom before we start to come up.
Which reminds me, Im fresh out of carrots, must pop up to Camberwell.
Wonderfull to find Withnail and Uncle Monty quoted. At least the country does produce fine actors, film makes and playwrights.
Scotgov seems to be ramping things up wrt Independence. Whether it is mere smoke and mirrors and expectation management remains to be seen. They know us campaigners are increasingly frustrated so the latter cannot be ruled out.
I hope it’s the former but I suspect they have given up on getting a Section 30 by normal means and instead want us the public to go on more big marches to try and send a message. But No10 is not going to pay attention to 5% of the country marching in Edinburgh.
Look at the entirely peaceful assemblies on the street the Catalans have long been able to put out there and what good has it done them except win international approval for their restraint. It hasn’t won over the EU that’s for sure. But they showed over Greece that democracy comes second to German Banks and their risky lending.
It’s one thing taking a stance for self determination and the “small is beautiful” concept. It’s a stance I take myself.
It’s quite another for Europeans and europhile Brits to take an over the top hostile position against an entire nation just because they’re upset about brexit and worried about its impact on them.
England is not a one dimensional villain and it is not a lost cause. This sort of ridiculous hyperbole is exactly the kind of pointless and irritating rhetoric that exacerbates the growing sociopolitical divide in England and between England and the rest of the UK and EU.
No Adam: this is the subjective narrative that determines real world trust
We are now unreliable and trust has been lost
It’s a transitional period during which powerful people in Europe are focussed on two things with relation to brexit:
A) preventing brexit if at all possible
B) ensuring brexit is as painless as possible for the EU and as painful/embarrassing possible for the UK.
So it isn’t merely a subjective opinion of a nation’s trustworthiness it is propaganda designed specifically to further both aims above.
Once this transitional period is over trust will quickly be re-established for the same reason it always is: because it benefits everyone involved.
Nations go to war with each other and manage to forge trusting new relationships during the ensuing peace so to suggest that this mere bickering will lead to England becoming “a lost cause” is entirely fanciful.
Sorry – but unless I spend all my time talking to powerful people I have to say you’re wrong
Not just a bit wrong
Just wrong
Our credibility is shot? Absolutely right.
What does this poll tell you about the UK?
Majority of voters think violence against MPs is a “price worth paying” over Brexit.
Professor Richard Wyn Jones said he had been “flabbergasted” by the results, given the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox before the referendum in 2016 and recent threats made towards other MPs.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-a-price-worth-paying-over-brexit/25/10/
I am staggered and worried by that
“I am staggered and worried by that”
Erm….. It’s a You Gov poll.
Breathe.
If this survey is remotely representative it’s deeply worrying and people need to get a grip of their emotions.
Placing dogmatic adherence to ideals above national unity and human decency is utter madness.
We’d genuinely be better off collectively agreeing to amicably go down an economically suboptimal route rather than tearing our nation apart over our inability to agree a common direction.
However, I trust that when it comes to the reality of violence the vast majority of the British public will show much greater restraint than when engaging in stupid arguments online and completing political surveys. I think it’ll rapidly blow over once brexit is over one way or another.
Adam Sawyer says:
“If this survey is remotely representative ….”
Adam, you missed my post.
It’s a You Gov poll.
Relax.
It’s BS. That an ostensibly reputable academic should deign to comment tells you more about the parlous state of modern day academia than it does about the violent intentions of the populus.
Hi Adam, Have you or has anyone you know lost their job, career, livelihood, a large amount of money, or is about to lose rights that seriously impact on how they live? If you had you would think again about other people needing to get a grip on their emotions. I am happy for you to compromise your own rights, that is up to you.
Tristram,
People are welcome to cry and moan about the bad stuff that happens to them, I’m not suggesting stiff upper lips all around regardless the situation.
It’s just when they start thinking violence is the answer they need to get a grip on their emotions before they land them and others in even greater misery.
There are many leave voters who voted leave because of the bad things that have happened to their communities over the last four decades.
There are many remain voters and EU citizens in the UK who fear what is going to happen or have already been adversely affected by brexit.
The two sides should be attempting to understand each other – not ruminating on violence to settle their differences.
If we go much further down the route of polarisation and populist outrage then the legal/economic outcomes of brexit will be the least of our worries.
We understand
Austerity was an evil
Now what?
Tristram,
Also don’t mistake me for being a hardcore brexiter.
When I say we’d be better off collectively agreeing a suboptimal economic outcome that could be remaining/soft brexit from a leaver perspective or a harder brexit from a remainer perspective.
What I don’t want is the bickering to turn into a fight.
Britain has been running away from the ‘longue durée’ consequences of its own history, since 1945. Finally, it is almost out of places to run, or hide; save in plain, bleak and uncomfortable sight.
From one Horizon to another; Brexit’s branding is more like the Deepwater Horizon.
An international laughing stock, indeed. And whilst many within the UK (or should I say England), cannot see it, the rest of the world can.
I read a post the other day of someone describing the feelgood factor and pride felt in 2012 during and after the olympics. How distant that feels. However, for those politicians brave enough to fight a positive way out of this mess, that is the prize at the end. Give something positive back to people that they can feel good about. They will appreciate it after 11 years of shit-house economics.
Agreed
Any of you lot watch the rugby??? Makes you proud to be English (though most on here probably wishes we lost!!)
I didn’t watch
Mick Skinner says:
“Any of you lot watch the rugby??? Makes you proud to be English (though most on here probably wishes we lost!!)”
Have you got some sort of downer on our Commonwealth partners? 🙂 🙂
I do know that, traditionally, the Welsh fans would happily see any team beat England…even the (bloody) French FFS 🙂
@ Mick Skinner
Yes, it was great watching! I’m looking forward to the final next weekend.
I always enjoy watching the respect players give each other and the referee in rugby matches. Football could certainly learn a thing or two. (PSR – you beat me to it.)
On rugby and football – “rugby is a thugs game played by gentlemen, football is a getleman’s game played by thugs”
I can’t help feeling the second half of that statement applies very well to politics, and especially so now…
I watched the rugby.
I don’t think the New Zealander’s got into the English 22 at all in the first half. The English defence was at the half way line. Those boys have worked hard and deserve their win – but it was a low scoring, punishing and overly defensive match to watch.
I just hope that England physically recovers enough for the final because the Welsh can play with even more variety than England and the South Africans can match us for physicality and skill. There were a lot of bruised and bloodied Englishman coming off that field today.
It also struck me about the manner in which the full time whistle blew. Men who had been intentionally competing with each other ferociously one minute hugged and congratulated or consoled each other – just like the Welsh did to the French. That made me feel more proud than the score line or the win. It was how they behaved afterwards that touched me and always does about RU.
Compare that to how vile Johnson & Co and Farage /Tice are to Europe and the Remain sector. BREXIT ain’t no rugby match – there’s no rules or respect whatsoever emanating from its proponents. If BREXIT had been ran like a rugby match, we would not be where we are today because of the observance of the rules. Try explaining that to Dominic Cummings et al.
But this is just a rugby match OK?
Not the birth of some ‘new nation’ that is just about to walk out of a perfectly good trading partnership for no good reason.