I was told by an academic I respect that they'd had enough of Brexit yesterday. It was too difficult to watch the country being torn apart by incompetent people to continue monitoring the detail, they suggested. There were better things to do with life.
I understand the sentiment.
I also understand on that basis why some just want Brexit done.
But the person making the comment and those just wanting Brexit done are not engaged with the process. That is not a statement attributing fault, let alone blame. It is always true that the vast majority of people will not engage with any political process. Those who do are always a minority. And progress does, then, depend in the minority. I find myself in it, which is never an uncommon feeling for me.
I am glad to not be alone though.
I am pleased that my own little city (because Ely is a city that is run by a parish council) has a meeting of those wanting to protest at No Deal tomorrow.
I am pleased that on social media there are those willing to stand up against the far-right trolls. For many that requires out of the ordinary courage.
I am pleased some politicians reveal that conviction still matters, even at Westminster.
I am encouraged by signs of clear cross party working on the timing of a general election.
I remain, even if ever so slightly, hopeful that this might be the foundation of greater cooperation if that is required in the national interest.
And I have to hope that the sheer incompetence of Johnson has been noted, even if a diehard fan base will remain.
This issue has a long way to go. The fatigue will grow.
But those of us who believe that all in this country deserve the best available to them have to stick to the issues and fight for sanity to prevail, on Brexit and more widely.
This is not the time to give up.
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Do you have an opinion on turning Brexit over to a citizens assembly to manage?
It is clear the politicians can not get anywhere.
I am not convinced by Citizen’s Assemblies
I am a democrat
Me neither for that matter.
You can be a democrat and still agree that some powers can be devolved. Not every policy goes to a vote in the HoC. So on the face of it that does not seem to me to be a reason to oppose CAs.
I’m just coming from a place where Brexit seems to be impossible for politicians to fix. The climate emergency is impossible for politicians to fix. Indeed we may be living in a world where action on the climate emergency happens too late to prevent unimaginable suffering.
So I wonder what we could have done differently 30 years ago to get action happening in a way that would be massively beneficial to humankind, while opposing dictatorships. Democracies should work but are causing mass suffering where decision makers are influenced not just by the uninformed, but by the deliberately misinformed.
CAs if run well seem to be a way for informed decision making, which was demonstratably lacking in the referendums I can think of.
Adam says:
“Do you have an opinion on turning Brexit over to a citizens assembly to manage?”
Well….in theory we have a representative citizens assembly in the shape of Parliament. I don’t quite see how the suggestion of establishing citizens assemblies meshes with what we already have. Nor does it seem like a plausible way of replacing it.
How, for example, does a citizens assembly differ from a self-selecting focus group ? And perhaps more importantly, how would the desires of a citizens assembly become policy, and then in turn be implemented ?
It sounds, on the face of it like a nice bit of democratic engagement, but I don’t see it being at all practicable. Politics has been described as ‘the art of the possible’. The Brexit debacle is probably as good an example as we’ve ever seen of a citizens’ desire being expressed: to ‘Leave The EU’ without any serious consideration of what that might entail or how we might go about it.
I think it would be more fruitful to consider how we could make what we’ve got function better. A proportional representation voting system would be a very good place to start. The ‘wisdom of the crowd’ turned that down flat when it was offered. (Largely because the process was misrepresented through media propaganda, in my estimation.)
This is interesting chat about citizen assemblies, I quite like the concept – but I’m not sure my concept is the same as what others are thinking, or if it is what would be considered. I am basing my concept on how Iceland created their constitution – a kind of crowdsourcing but with the citizen assembly in charge of collating and sourcing the opinions, then presenting options for consideration by the elected representatives. Who is selected for the assembly? Well, interested parties and people with knowledge and experience in the required field? (I hesitate to say ‘experts’ because of the way the media uses that phrase inappropriately).
Now, I have doubts that would work for brexit at this stage, there is possibly not going to be any positive feedback from any quarter,,, but, then again, it might bring in a bit of much needed moderation, and creativity, if there is any of that left anywhere.
I’m going to vote in favour of Adam’s suggestion.
“and more widely” is the key… The British system surely cannot survive this debacle and come bouncing back once the wind has gone from this storm. This challenge reaches into the crevices where the dust has been collecting for centuries. Parliamentary and Party procedures, the shoe buckles and swords, audiences with the Queen, the bullying and hectoring within and outside of the talking shops, not to mention the extraordinary inconsistencies that arise in a group of British territories from the Northern Isles to the Channel Islands and all places between…and much much more…please promise me that it all must now be reformed!
Richard
I heard similar sentiments to that expressed by your academic friend from one of my friends who had supported Remain, when I asked him last night why he had liked a Facebook post looking forward to Brexit being done and over with.
With the benefit of my Northern Ireland perspective, I suggested to him that Brexit, whatever the outcome will be never ending like the NI peace process. For us, the peace process never formally ended. We have had to deal with issues that contributed to the ‘Troubles’ as well as the legacy issues that were created. In case, people get the wrong idea as to my view, the Good Friday Agreement remains a great achievement (even if the benefits have tended to be disproportionately enjoyed by those who suffered least). However it left future relationships, particularly between people in Northern Ireland in a state of fluidity.
The future relationship with Europe will be a central issue in UK politics for years to come, whatever the outcome, even if we end up remaining within the EU. IMO, blocking ‘No Deal’ is legitimate, but be clear and honest with ourselves and others that Brexit (like the NI peace process) will be seemingly interminable and that going back to what was available on 22 June 2016 is not a viable option.
You are right
Brexit is the main political issue barring climate change for the rest of my life and beyond, I am sure
The idea that many have that 9 months after it’s done it will seem like ancient history is just wrong
You’re right to highlight the increasing Brexit fatigue. What is worse it is playing in to the PM’s hands. That’s why he’s desperate to get a GE.
It is all well and good to use legislation and parliamentary procedures to seek to prevent an abrupt, disorderly exit from the EU, but much more needs to be done to highlight the implications for ordinary citizens. Any systematic, empirical assessment by those with the relevant experise and competence is thrashed as a part of Project Fear (witness Rees-Mogg’s abusive response to Dr. David Nicholl’s analysis).
I’m not sure if any objective assessment has been conducted, but it would be interesting to find out what the implications of a so-called “no deal” might be for the supply of dog food and cat food. If there were any serious threat to the supply of these foods and any risk that their beloved canines and felines might be deprived in any way the resolve of even the hardest of hard Brexiteers would turn to mush. If ordinary citizens were to suffer from no deal then regrettably that would be their own fault if they hadn’t made adequate provision. But poor innocent cats and dogs….
David is right
If we don’t leave, the leavers, roughly 50% of the country will feel betrayed and will carry on fighting to leave.
If we do leave, the campaign to rejoin starts the next day if not before.
There is no conceivable end in sight.
This why I have sometimes thought we should leave without a deal. Yes it will be ugly. But if it fails, the Brexiteers are discredited utterly and we can apply to get back in and never have this again. But maybe I am too optimistic. Maybe the Brexit supporters would still be happy even if people were starving in the streets. They are fanatics after all.
The last is true
The rest follows
Hi Richard,
Agreed – why would people give up on something that is so important?
I think it a shame that any mention of another referendum to sort this problem out seems to have vanished from the Westminster debate. The danger is that having an election first will deliver a result that is either inconclusive or somewhat perverse in relation to the country’s views on BREXIT because of the vagaries of the FPTP system and the fact that a lot of other issues are thrown into the mix.
I would favor having a 3-way referendum before an election where people got to rank their choice from the following REALISTIC options:
1. Something quite close to May’s withdrawal agreement that includes the backstop arrangements for NI – possibly the most sensible being for NI to stay in the CU and SM and have the border in the Irish sea. This option would be a gateway to a free trade deal for the rest of the UK after the transition period and therefore is the hardest possible BREXIT that is consistent with the UK’s commitments to NI.
2. Leaving the political EU but the whole UK staying in the CU and SM. This makes economic but not political sense.
3. Staying in the EU
There is no option for “No-Deal” BREXIT in the above list because it doesn’t really exist – it just represents a re-ordering of when exit and negotiations happen (with a massively negative impact on our power in those negotiations).
If the current MPs could abandon their tribal loyalties they could establish an administration to get rid of Johnson, setup and oversea this referendum, and then have an election. Hoping for this puts me in the “believing in Father Christmas” category of dreamers, but one has to have hope!
“I wish they would just sort it one way or the other”, is a cry of irrational despair.
Anybody who has ever lived in a house in which major refurbishments are taking place wishes it would be finished.
But if the refurbishment is for example, a new kitchen fitting they would be hardly likely to accept that an unusable kitchen was an acceptable result simply in order to have the disruption stop.
Brexit, hard or soft has to leave us with a functioning country. The end result does actually matter.
Oh, dear. Does this same ‘academic’ imagine that ‘Brexit Day’ is going to resolve everything. (Or ANYthing for that matter) ?
Does s/he not grasp that that would be the starting signal for at least a decade of even more tortuous haggling ?
I think this academic is simply suffering despair like many others
The perfect Brexit summation (attributed to Spike Milligan): “It’s only when you realise it’s all a load of rubbish that it makes more sense!”
🙂
Despair is not an option, is it? It’s a mood. It passes.
If it lasts too long, suggest to your friend that he joins people actively involved in stopping this mood we all experience at times. He might feel better for it, or give him “The Myth of Sysiphus” to read.
Marie Thomas says:
“Despair is not an option, is it? It’s a mood. It passes.”
Hmmmm… true for most of us, but for some people despair is a terminal condition.
Which is why we need much better funding for mental health services……. until such time as we have better funding for other social structures that will maybe ameliorate the pressures which literally drive some people round the bend; into depression and suicide.
Just read this and thought it appropriate to what’s happening to so many accepting defeat:
“…they must live within a lie. They need not accept the lie. It is enough for them to have accepted their life with it & in it. For by this very fact, individuals confirm the system, fulfil the system, make the system, are the system.”
– Václav Havel, “Power of the Powerless”
Marie Thomas says:
“…. individuals confirm the system, fulfil the system, make the system, are the system.”
…which leads us to the cruel irony that in attacking the system we also by accepting it can strengthen it. The mere acceptance of it gives it credence.
George Lakoff makes the point in his discussions of ‘Reframing’ an argument.
George Monbiot (without actually referring to the concept of ‘reframing’) considers here the importance of the narrative in governing our expectations and intentions and therefore the outcomes we get.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDKth-qS8Jk
…and this is very powerful testimony to the importance of ‘stories’. Beautifully delivered I think. There’s a digest version of this in existence, but I can’t locate a link for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ihs241zeg&list=RDQM2uWpclgOaNw&start_radio=1
I’ll have a look Andy
@Andy Crow
Thank you for sharing the Ted lecture by Ngozi-Adichie.
I have read all her books and I can see that she speaks as well as she writes.
In “Americanah” she writes about these feelings of alienation, but also about the search for the many stories and identities that constitute a person as well as a people.
All done with humour, insight, humanity.
It’s so good to see and hear intelligence expressed in such a simple, clear, eloquent manner.
We all start with a single story. Some find it difficult to move away from it. It can be uncomfortable, it is challenging.
Her books should be on the shelves of all school libraries…and those who choose to read them would almost certainly inspire others to read them, and to make them their own.
She really is an inspiration and an active intellectual, not many of those left.
Marie Thomas says:
“Thank you for sharing the Ted lecture by Ngozi-Adichie.”
My pleasure. She’s a new voice to me and I have not read any of her writing. You’ll gather I was impressed by what she had to say; and the delightful way in which she delivers her thoughts and observations. Sincerely, lucidly but shot through with a wry humour. I love that combination. 🙂