An advantage of living with teenagers is you get to talk to teenagers. By and large they get a bad press. Most I see are pretty decent people. I may be lucky.
One asked me recently what the chance of a second Brexit referendum was. I had to suggest it was well under half. I suggested a general election as more likely.
That, they opined, was a useless option. They could not vote Tory because the party was pro-Leave and hopelessly divided.
They could not vote Labour because it was pro-leave.
They liked the Greens but they were a wasted vote.
The Lib-Dems had helped sell the young out on education and were not to be forgiven.
And the SNP does not stand around here.
I should say UKIP did not appear in their analysis, which was interesting in itself.
So a question was posed: what were the young to do but despair of politicians and a political system that was failing them?
For once I had no direct answer. I could only say that in the outright mess we were all facing there must be some opportunity for them. I said their only hope was to look for it and start building afresh.
I hope this young person, and all they know, has the resilience to do just that. We will be dependent upon them doing so..
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I think you (and your son) have touched on a crucial issue which doesn’t get the exposure it should in the MSM. From the research I’ve come across there appears to be a growing generational gap on key issues such as Europe, education, the environment, homelessness, political ‘figureheads, sexuality and the general direction of travel for life in England. Of course one can’t make sweeping assumptions about an entire generation but it’s within Y and Z where the roots of progressive change lie.
I empathise with your son’s negative assessment of the available choices. The danger is that others will become – or are already – apathetic to the political process, leaving the door open to extremists.
On September 9th there is a critical GE in Sweden where, as you will know, the far right are making significant gains on the immigration issue. But there is some good news. Surveys are suggesting that after immigration the second most important issue for voters is the environment, highlighted by this 15 year-old’s protest – https://www.thelocal.se/20180824/meet-the-15-year-old-swedish-girl-on-strike-from-school-for-the-climate. (Incidentally, Sweden has very high voter GE turn-out at over 80% but that’s another topic).
So what could this mean for your son and his fellow Generation Z-ers? My suggestion would be to accept the current impasse (can’t think of the right word) and join the Green Party. It may be a wasted a vote right now but it’s a small yet valuable contribution to putting the environment to where it should be on our political agenda. At least that’s what I tell my grandson. The only other option is to hold one’s nose and vote Labour!
This one wasn’t a son….
Although it could have been
I think they have to be idealistic right now, on relfection
Note. Sweden has proportional voting system. Possibly account for some of the higher turnout? In Scotland we have a mix of systems – can be confusing. Needs looking at and revising. Is there any mileage in encouraging people, esp. England, to support Electoral Reform? Change has to start somewhere.
Massive mileage but the LibDems wrecked that for a while…..
I’d argue Gordon Brown wrecked the path to PR. His game playing nonsense in the early years of the Blair era included spiking Blair’s electoral reform instinct.
Hazel says:
” Is there any mileage in encouraging people, esp. England, to support Electoral Reform? Change has to start somewhere.”
Of course there is, Hazel. You don’t have to start from scratch there are bodies already working on it but funding and energy are limited and you would be welcome I’m sure to add your your support in whatever degree you are able and willing. If not you…then who ?
team@unlockdemocracy.org.uk (Morphed out of Charter 88)
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=diem25%20thoughts%20and%20discussions (Pan Europe movement for democratic reform)
n.lawson@compassonline.org.uk (Compass, left wing think tank of many years standing actively engaged in promoting progressive reforms)
Put your metaphorical boots on and get kicking 🙂 (Wear safety boots to protect your toes 🙂 )
I’ve never understood this ‘generation Z’ thing.
It sounds pessimistically terminal.
“what were the young to do but despair of politicians and a political system that was failing them?”…..”For once I had no direct answer”
I’s say they should look at the wider picture. You could help by explaining some basic macroeconomics in MMT terms. It’s really only by analysing the recent economic history of both the UK and the EU that we can try to make some sense of recent events. Besides Brexit, this includes the wider debt crisis, and economic stagnation, including in Greece and Italy, and which has led to the rise of the far right in the EU generally.
We all want a successful ‘Europe’. We can disagree on whether Brexit is the best way to achieve this, but I think we all can agree too that the EU needs to change radically and quickly if it is to survive, in any kind of desirable way, in the longer term.
Oh, that happens, I promise
But they still ask, quite reasonably, who will deliver it?
“….But [the young] still ask, quite reasonably, who will deliver it?….]
I think they are going to have to cook it themselves. This stuff doesn’t appear on the takeaway menu.
And if that sounds flippant….it isn’t.
The old buggers (present company excepted of course 🙂 ) are the most selfish, mean and nasty generations that have ever inhabited this planet in modern times, and they will deliver nothing but a heap of shagged-out crap to their successor generations.
Who could forget Gove saying “I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong” and then people stopping listening after the 12th word.
And now we have people saying things like “in all Brexit scenarios the UK will be better off than before, but we will be worse off compared to the gains from remaining in the EU”, and the same people are only starting listening after the 12th word.
We have come fill circle.
Incidentally, the chances of there being another EU referendum by the end of 2020 are being provided by the bookies. It’s only 9 to 4 against.
It has to be them. And it’s a huge task.
The problem is that the UK is hopelessly split on EU membership. The remainers themselves are split over just how much EU they want. Most want as little as possible. No euro. No Schengen. Keeping all our opt-outs. Free movement is OK for us, if we want to retire to France but it’s a downside if lots of Polish and Romanian people want to move here. Just a price to pay for the greater prosperity the EU will bring.
So the challenge has to be to create a Europe that we all want to be a part of. No opting out of anything at all! So how do we do that?
Voting green might seem like a wasted vote, but every extra green vote helps demonstrate how awful FPTP is and may help push towards proper electoral reform. Plus it can make the other parties realise they need to put more onus on green issues. If labour can’t get away from their neoliberal tendencies or reverse Brexit then I would agree I see no reason to vote for them.
I am going to find it difficult to vote Labour as things are
Adam says:
“…Voting green might seem like a wasted vote, but every extra green vote helps demonstrate how awful FPTP is…..”
If I was still in England, which mercifully I’m not; having moved to Scotland a few years ago (with absolutely zero intention of ever returning to what I used to regard as ‘home’.) I think I’d come to the same conclusion you do, Adam.
Tactical voting be damned and support no one who defends a broken voting system unfit for purpose in a multi party election. Berate them in fact at every opportunity as idiots and anti democratic vermin.
PR has to be part of the democratic machinery. No PR = No Democracy. It is that simple and it’s screamingly obvious to all; especially to those who defend FPTP. That of course is why they defend it.
Every vote cast for a party other than one of the two main parties, that FPTP encourages, is a vote that re-enforces the call for electoral reform (The previous vote was on AV not PR) but it also directly affects the ability of smaller parties to campaign.
Every vote contributes to the Short money calculation which the Green party depends upon due to not accepting funding from corporates or individuals that might not be inline with their principles.
Proportional Representation is what the UK needs. That way your vote ALWAYS counts and can you can vote FOR things not simply against, to limit damage. And if your Green candidate, or whomever, isn’t electable you still get to choose between those who are.
The arguments against it are self-interested cant. The “sacred link” between an MP and a constituency? What rubbish. The Irish and others have both govt and opposition MPs in multi-seat constituencies so almost every citizen, bar the vote spoilers, is actually represented. As for strong govt and “no backroom deals”, that’s also nonsense as the last two elections have shown.
The only silver lining if Brexit goes ahead will be the constitutional modernization that cannot fail to follow, but it would be better and less costly to avoid Brexit and reform the UK’s constitution without the chaos.
Agreed
@Paul,
I don’t agree. The problem I have in EU elections is that I’m asked to vote for a party. Now, there are those in my chosen party that I’d be happy to vote for and some that I wouldn’t but I can’t say put me down as voting for X and not for Y.
That’s a fundamental problem. I want to vote for a person and not a party. If the Irish and others want to do something different that’s up to them, but we don’t have to copy.
PR doesn’t necessarily involve voting for a party. In Ireland it facilitates voting any way you like, ranking
Local issue
Party preference
Candidate preference
Coalition ticket preference
National issue
Crank issue
Etc
however you wish, via the single transferrable vote. I don’t have any great objection to the list system for enabling parties to ensure they have appropriate expertise in parliamenf, and it seems an odd objection given the grotesque unfairness of the UK electoral system overall (FPTP with imposed candidates in many cases and an unelected upper house, w more unelected politicians than in the EU and every member state legislature combined).
The mixed member system has the ‘sacred link’ but constituencies are twice as big. It is invoked by opponents of PR because they know it undermines the case for it.
What they don’t tell us is that from about the middle 1200 constituencies had two members. Boroughs had two MPs and counties (except Yorkshire ) had two. The county MPs had to represent a bigger area than most modern constituencies and get around on horses. That lasted unto about 1885-most of the time we have had a parliament.
Paul says:
“..The arguments against it are self-interested cant…”
Oooh! I thought, that’s a bit ‘strong’. !!
Then I read it more carefully. 🙂
Apologies, I meant to say “The arguments against it made by MPs…”
68.4% of votes cast in the UK in the last election were wasted. That is, played no role in electing anyone. Most people live and vote in safe seats. That’s not really democracy in my book. It’s a sham. So, no wonder people are disillusioned and feel that voting changes nothing. They’re right. It rarely does.
There are a few schemes for people to live/work in the EU27:
o Golden visas (expensive)
o The EU Blue Card [https://apply.eu/]. Sort of equivalent to US Green Card but get a decent education/qualification (and perhaps a second language to English)
o Startup visas (various countries do this, some, like Latvia, are remarkably cheap – but there are caveats)
o Get educated in the EU27 (often far cheaper than the UK) and get work in the EU27 afterwards
o Sponsorships (requires a deal of research)
None of which have the advantages of FoM but UK beggars can no longer be choosers…
[…] is a view that sharply contrasts with the concern of the young person I referred to this morning. But I am not disputing Larry’s opinion: maybe an informed young person is not typical of the […]
I don’t think UK Labour and Conservatives are political parties anymore in the traditional sense. They’re conglomerates of groups that want different things, only held together by this antiquated British ‘First Past Da Post’ (FTP) voting system.
Being the two major parties like in USA, they’re hanging on to power for dear life, whether in Government or not. They know their turn will come when the other party fucks things up enough. Trump and Brexit being a case in point.
If UK had Proportional Representation (PR), they’d split in their true factions of Socialists and Bolsheviks, Traditionalists and proper Fascism.
USA desperately needs a third major party for the same reason to weed out the racists in Democrats and Republicans.
In Scotland we do not have PR we have a crazy voting system given to us a a punishment by Westminster for daring to ask for our own parliament.Basically what we have is a system where half of the MP,s in the Scottish parliament are voted in by the people of Scotland and the other half are chosen by the political party,s and to further complicate matters the more MPs you get from the people’s vote the fewer you get from the other half a system which was chosen by Westminster to ensure that the SNP can never have more than half the total MPs and that’s why SNP need the greens to have a majority in the Scottish Parliament
The dhondt method
Diabolical
So even though SNP get nearly all the MPs from the people’s vote Labour Tories Lib Dem’s get MPs from the other half many of them don’t even live in Scotland and are not Scottish
I’m not sure if I should apologize for being party political, but either way, please reassure your young friend that a Green vote is one well spent. Locally it helps get a different voice onto councils, to challenge the consensus, ask the awkward questions and above all put issues on the agenda that other parties don’t get. Nationally every Green vote adds to the ‘short money’ that MPs get to support their work – this is how Caroline Lucas is able to do the work of many MPs.
Tactical voting may still be appropriate in a few places at a few times, until we get a fairer proportional system. The biggest parties best offer is that they are not each other, and they benefit from the ‘us or them’ duopoly, so it really is time to demand, support and be part of a better option
I have encouraged them to think Green
And the group in Norwich is an example as to why to do so
What you describe has been our best hope for some time. There is still a chance that we may pull back from the brink however.