This came from The Red Box from The Times this morning:
Remember the sample is rather biased.
Two questions: your thoughts?
And does anyone know of some nice questionnaire plugin for WordPress?
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Bloody hell, they really like the woman who took the Tories from conservative to radical, don’t they? I have a grudging admiration for the scale of her achievement, though I loath the fanatical zeal and contempt for the losers.
Interesting that only 3 out of 7 get a net positive.
Unkind to Gordon Brown. You’d have thought he’d have got more credit for saving the world pretty much single handed.
The big losers all saw their teams’ values collapse at the end of their watch. Major is interesting. It seems that people feel that he passed the liberal Tory values on to the next team.
I felt it unfair to Gordon Brown
But he was not a good PM
And for the avoidance of doubt, Thatcher’s achievements, though substantial, were almost entirely negative.
It’s also just stuck me that the last three PMs all lose big. Perhaps there’s always a bias against the current crop, compared to the giants of the past?
My overall comment is that the country has had very poor-to-mediocre leadership during these decades. Which is why we’re where we are today. As it’s a Times sample you would expect Thatcher to score highly. Among too many older, white, middle-class people she enjoys sainthood and is revered beyond criticism. Just shows the worrying level of political/economic ignorance and lack of critical thinking that abounds within a section of the community that probably enjoyed a so-called ‘good’ education.
Ofc it depends who you ask. The Historical Writers’ Association reached a very different conclusion – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politicsvery /margaret-thatcher-worst-prime-minister-pm-david-cameron-century-100-years-a7367481.html.
I agree with you about Gordon Brown. A decent human being in the wrong job.
Obviously VERY few (if any) Scottish votes given Thatcher’s popularity.
I had a conversation with a old pal in which we discussed not who the best PMs had been in our lifetimes, but which UK governments had created lasting benefits for the British people. We could think of only two: the Attlee government of 1945-51, whose creation of a welfare state was a game-changer for most of the population at the time and ever since, and the Wilson government of 1964-70 for the Open University.
Tony Blair’s 1997-2007 government was a big contender too for seeing the Good Friday process through to a peaceful outcome, however this was cancelled out by his machinations to involve us in wars and also for generally letting the people down after appearing to be the cure to successive sleaze-ridden Tory governments.
In the least beneficial category Thatcher’s governments easily came out on top for the Big Bang, the destruction of workers’ rights, the destruction of our heavy industries, the societal damage, the introduction of neo-liberal economics (what a misnomer – what’s liberal about it?), the sell-off and privatisation of state assets; the list goes on and on. Paddy Ashdown is spot-on in saying that she was not a builder and her real talent lay in destroying things.
Cameron was also a contender for his general ineffectiveness, but mainly for his Brexit referendum
However, when started looking at the pre-Thatcher governments of the 1960s-80s we were spoiled for choice.
So, for the bulk of the last 73 years, Britain has been poorly served by most of its dogma-driven governments for most of the time. I can’t see any substantive change until Westminster adopts an appropriate form of PR. Only then will we get governments which reflect the population’s views and governance which requires a greater degree of cross-party consensus, rather than rule by Diktat, which the current lot seeks to impose.
Apologies for a broken link. Should be – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatcher-worst-prime-minister-pm-david-cameron-century-100-years-a7367481.html.
A predictable poll result, but sad nonetheless.
It shows us up as a nation which likes the firm smack of government and being told what to do and what to think.
Small wonder we have such poor governance. I wonder if we will ever espouse the notion of democracy.
Andy Crow says: “I wonder if we will ever espouse the notion of democracy.”
A minimal first step would be PR. The botched, ill-informed 2011 referendum set us back further decades. We can only hope that a future generation will exhibit less hierarchical tendencies and demand a greater say in how it’s governed.
Democracy is always a tricky thing. There are plenty of examples of PR leading to minority control of the balance of power, in fact this is the likely scenario. It would be helpful if we as a society could define what we want our democracy to be. Should it be simply the sway of the majority willing to vote in which case we get a Brexit situation or should the non voters be taken into account which could be obtained from a broad based Parliament given a free vote on all policy rather than whipped. Some may prefer the dominance of an educated, elite minority which is more or less what we get now.
Democracy is not an easy thing to define or deliver but it does need the right to criticise and the ability to replace any governing class which is being denied to many in ever increasing parts of the world. We should all be thankful that these things are still available to us in the main.
Generally speaking, both Thatcher and Blair were fortunate enough to be PM during an economic upswing rather than the reverse. I’d argue that this is the primary reason for their popularity – they’re simply lucky enough to be able to bask in the false sunrise of a Neoliberal economic debt/privatisation explosion.
Remember that the Thatcher years were the peak of North Sea Oil revenues.
Carol Wilcox says:
“Remember that the Thatcher years were the peak of North Sea Oil revenues.”
Which were squandered on the dissolution of the manufacturing base of the UK with little or no consideration of building an alternative real economy. This was the power base for the financialisation of the entire economy and an impetus so great that it has carried on to this day under its own inexorable energy. (Despite the depredations of the GFC) Ably supported on the way by New Labour albeit with some concessions to spreading a little largesse as crumbs to the those at the bottom of the heap. Enough at least to cement TB’s reputation as a ‘good thing’ as illustrated by the poll results above.
If it weren’t for Iraq and the surveillance state, I’d give Blair/ Brown very high marks for rescuing the public services. In simple terms, most people became a lot better off on their watch, they tackled child poverty and third world debt and projected soft power effectively. And they saved the world when the American bankers broke it.
But Iraq.
They did put too much trust in the markets, for which we all paid a heavy price. I’d say that this is forgivable, though: there was an argument for unleashing the market to generate wealth for everyone. What is unforgivable is failing to learn the lessons and regulate effectively when the failures began piling up in the following years.
And they committed the ultimate crime of failing to plan for their succession. The six months when the party was AWOL dickering over Milibands handed the narrative, and the next decade, to the Tories unopposed.
Will Ross says:
“If it weren’t for Iraq and the surveillance state, I’d give Blair/ Brown very high marks for rescuing the public services. ”
I’d give them marks, but not high marks. No marks for a two year adoption of the Clark budget. No marks for squandering so much time on the foxhunting bill which was a shamefully handled distraction. No marks at all for TB’s ambitions to join the Euro and win status in Europe for his own transparent ends. No marks at all for Iraq and turning our backs on Europe to side with the Bush religious crusade. No marks for allowing the media to persist with the illusion of the Blair/Brown feud which was pure PR manipulation. No marks for reinstating the disgraced and disgraceful Peter Mandelson (twice !) and allowing his destruction of all the work Mo Mowlem did in Northern Ireland. And actually the list goes on, and there were not enough mitigating factors as is admirably demonstrated in Blair’s position in the above poll and Brown’s also.
For more than a decade they managed to give the neoliberal consensus a gloss of respectability which fooled a lot of people most of the time. The consequences persist.
Thinking back to my childhood, James Callaghan is probably the first politician i remember. Our neighbour had a house-fire and our road was lined with green-goddess fire-engines, as the army was covering the fire-service strike. With what i knew then, Callaghan could have told me blue was red and i would have believed it. Fortunately time has awoken my mind to the ways of politics. Margaret Thatcher’s grave is well trodden, Tony Blair seemed to confuse himself more than anything else, David Cameron loved his ego far too much and as for Theresa May, she has taken it all into silly season. Having a prime-minister is actually pointless. In a democratic government, one person should not have a final decision above everyone else, as i think it encourages power abuse and dictatorship.
I think some of the commentators have have got the wrong end of the stick.
This poll result isn’t merely that of a popularity contest. It is a measure of those that are most likely to polarise opinion. In some ways it shows us who the most divisive leaders are and it only gives us half of the picture.
Conduct the same poll at the Guardian (or Mirror?) and Thatcher would get as big a negative there as the positive she got among the Times’ conservative readers. The link provide by John D (above) bears that out to some extent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatcher-worst-prime-minister-pm-david-cameron-century-100-years-a7367481.html
It is nonetheless interesting to see how popular Blair is among the Times crowd. As for Brown, Cameron and May it might be fair to say that distant memories are often kinder than fresh ones although Cameron and May will also cop the resentment of the Tory remainers that are reading the Times. Phil G (above) also made a good point about timing with Thatcher and Blair being on the upside side of the bubble.