I am aware I have devoted little time to the political issue of the moment, which is the EU referendum campaign. I am equally aware some have asked me to elaborate on my previously stated opinion that I will vote yes.
I have reflected on this and for three reasons have little to add. Firstly, as I explained before, decisions such as this cannot be entirely rational. I keep hearing people demanding facts on which to make up their minds. I have to be honest; such facts are and will always be in short supply. I happen to think those from the Remain camp are more honest than those from Leave, where the £350 million a week figure is blatantly untrue, but to be precise about costs and forecasts is not possible, so sentiment has to be the basis for any decision on thus issue.
Second, I am aware that the Charity Commission have warned against anyone with charity funding (and I do) engaging in this debate without an evidence base, and as I have just noted, this is limited in the case of economics.
Third, I have then to look at this issue using other criteria. There are several of these.
The first is as as a person whose family includes economic migrants who have, I think, benefitted the UK. Whilst recognising the stress migration can cause I do not think that this issue can be better addressed by the UK in isolation. And I do believe that migration is a net and very powerful gain to the UK, overall. I could not vote for something that would, if a situation was repeated now, potentially exclude many in my family from this country.
Then I look at the economic facts that concern me most and note that the EU has been good for that part of society that is most important to me. The EU has been a powerful force for good in employee and women's rights and continues, overall, to be so. Many rights now taken for granted happened because of EU law, and I value that. Saying so, I also recognise that the EU has been a powerful force in reinforcing the rights of capital and by doing so it has contributed to an undoubted increase in inequality. This I accept. But I think that would have happened anyway. The wave of neoliberalism that swept the world from 1980 would have resulted in this outcome in the UK come what may, and might even have been worse without the EU. I have in this context previously noted the powerful and pioneering role of the EU in tackling tax abuse, for example, via the EU Code of Conduct, which was exceptional when introduced, and the EU Savings Tax Directive. Again, then, I see a net powerful contribution.
Last I look to the future. I make no prediction beyond believing that we face a period of profound change which will be stressful. It is my belief that to face that stress in an environment where mechanisms to manage some of those international strains exist is better than to do so in a situation where perpetual small-minded and self-interested threat is the weapon of choice, as those suggesting leaving the EU seem to think the available option to be. Cooperation will not always result in perfect outcomes, and I will sometimes be disappointed. But again this is a balancing act and I believe there is an overall better chance of managing change within rather than out if the EU.
I campaigned for staying in the EU in 1975. I have not changed my mind, although I am not campaigning now and explain my rationale only because I have been asked to do so. But nothing suggests leaving makes any sense to me.
What I do regret is the time and effort, and potential damage that this referendum has caused. This to me is the biggest indicator of political failure in the UK. And that may be both good reason to stay in the EU and the greatest cause of concern.
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Really interesting Richard. I particularly appreciate your opening about how unpredictable and unknowable the economic facts and consequences are. Equally difficult is imagining how neoliberalism would have panned out for Greece and the UK without EU institutions, which I think is a legitimate concern voiced by those making a progressive argument to leave. But as you say one has to work through the pros of advances in legal rights enabled by the UK when considering negative effects of economic policy and financial institutions.
It is the deluded but frightening imperialist thinking underpinning the small-minded and self-interested threat arguments by those leading the charge to leave that is having the most influence on my thinking.
But what a distraction from ‘politics’ at home. Look forward to your comments on yesterday’s inflation figures.
This is where I diverge from you, I just cannot believe all of what you fight for will become reality remaining in Europe. How on earth will those of us on the WORKING class left have any influence over this juggernaut of ideology. I’m not a liberal, I believe in social justice fiercely and Europe could never deliver for people like me, we will suffer hugely from wage deflation. Boris and his mob want the extreme of what Europe desire, but we can kick them out because most of Britain detest the far right, so let’s vote out and change Europe for the people that live in it.
An interesting Out argument from the Left thankfully bereft of the shrill xenophobia we have seen from that corner.
However, I would argue that your vision of a post EU Britain is just not on offer here. You describe the most high profile Leave campaigners as “Boris and his mob” and I think you hit the nail there, which is why in this referendum at least you should reconsider your Leave vote.
The democratic landscape of Britain is not as pure as more thoughtful Leave voters like yourself imagine, and note that following the Tory gerrymandering, voting out Boris and the deluded gang of workers’ rights attacking free marketeers is going to be much much harder in the future.
The EU has made huge mistakes, not least in its dealings with Greece and the other stressed peripheral Eurozone states. Minds need to be changed, not least in Germany. But running off with the ball won’t win that argument.
Battling hard within the EU with well developed arguments can be turgid, monotonous, banal and humdrum, but it is the only way.
I just can’t see us being able to fight that battle within Europe, if out is what becomes a reality then it does not close the door to Europe, for me it liberates it from the dogma of ideology and frees it from the extreme right, that will only continue to grow stronger if we stay. I say this with relativity, nothing will be perfect.
I second that James S
I write as one that deals with the errr “juggernaut of ideology” i.e. the EC, the lobbyists and to a lesser extent the member states. In my particular areas (transport & energy) I see a lack of ideology – vested interests, careerism, sometimes stupidity tend to be the most significant elements. In that sense, not so different from any other large org. The existential challenge facing humanity, right now, is climate change and the (mostly) economic adjustments we will need to make to prevent/address/stop (take your pick) this getting much worse. Being in the EU may help rather than hinder the so-far rather feeble UK attempts.
On a related note, my dealings with (trusted) elements within the EC suggest that the UK administration is becoming less functional. Let me express this another way “corrupt to the very core with high speed rotating doors” is typical of the views held by people within the EC that have to deal with UK officials. I’d add that this is my own view having dealt with, in the past, some competition cases, where it was clear that UK competition authorities were fundamnetally compromised/corrupt. Happy to give chapter and verse for those that are interested. This in part is probably due to the 36 odd years of tory & tory-lite governments. If you want ideaological-driven policy – you need only look in your own back yard. On that unhappy note, I’ll finish.
“in the past, some competition cases, where it was clear that UK competition authorities were fundamnetally compromised/corrupt. Happy to give chapter and verse for those that are interested”
Mike, I’d certainly be interested in getting more details. Given the private good, public bad ideology in UK politics, this wouldn’t surprise me at all.
I’m voting for a draw.
I am still struggling to come to a decision over Remain or Leave, not because I have any particular concern over the economic outcome for the country under either scenario because I firmly believe that most people will still have to work very hard for any real financial success or security under either option.
But the bigger question that I am grappling with is the future political direction of both the UK and the EU, both of which have been captured by the private financial capitalist world in fairly equal measure. And so both need reforming from the bottom up and inside out if we are to have any chance in this country and across this continent of a peaceful, sustainable, low carbon, democratic future that could in any way be called socially driven rather than capital driven.
I am beginning to lean to the Remain side, but not for any of the reasons that the bulk of the Remain camp are arguing for or setting their fearmongers to work against.
I would like to see a well articulated and forceful “Remain and Reform” camp take over the lead of this campaign, there is the beginnings of it from Corbyn and Mcdonnell but it is being drowned out by the Tory and business led diatribe which is probably turning more people to the Leave side than convincing them to stay in the EU.
Remain and Reform not just the EU, but the UK as well !!
@Keith- you have just articulated my own sentiments. I’ve teetered on the fence for ages and at one time was actually thinking of not voting, caught between a rock and a hard place. There is so much systemically wrong with both ‘camps’. If there was any chance of ousting the current bunch of UK neo-cons from power in the forseeable future I’d possibly prefer a Brexit solution, but not for any of the jingoistic reasons put forward by its high-profile promoters. In general I prefer a Bentham-ish solution to any socio-political issue but there’s no chance of that evolving in the UK, or rather England. On the other hand, in spite of the ghastly mess the EU has allowed itself to fall into, there are significant groups of reformists who get little mention in the MSM. So, on balance, I’ll opt for Remain in the hope that we can really effect change from within. Either way it’s a gamble with no easy-to-see positive outcome. Anyhow, thanks to you, Richard and other posters for helping me to get off an uncomfortable fence!
It is stories like this that demonstrate the corrupted state of British democracy and the mayoral cities. There is plenty of good EU regulation, take the air quality standards, which benefit all in society and place quite just restrictions on those who aim to do society harm (deliberately or not).
And so when we see leading Brexit campaigners have had their filthy paws in burying scientific reports into London air quality, for what can only be seen as political/financial reasons, my trust (if I ever had any) in their ability to run the country for the benefit of the people as a whole is completely shattered.
All such reports should be published in good time, it is for the public to debate and decide what they believe and what action should be taken – not the corrupted (and corruptable) so-called representative politicians.
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/boris-johnson-pollution-schools-report.html
Paul Mason put across the left wing “Remain and Reform” argument quite well on QT last night, even though he leans generally towards Brexit as he doesn’t believe the EU is reformable in its current state he acknowledges the risks of leaving the EU and placing the UK firmly in the hands of the Tory right and UKIP.
He also acknowledges the EU is on the verge of tearing itself apart from within as so many of its members are struggling with the Euro crisis, migration and right wing nationalism.
Political and economic reform is therefore required urgently, in the EU and the UK!
It won’t be easy, and it won’t be achieved without a battle of minds (at the very least), but it does need to happen if Europe as a whole is to be re-aligned along social needs instead of being primarily driven by the desires of capital.
As you know, Richard, I will probably vote to ‘leave’ but not from the point of view of any existing , so-called ‘camps’ (which represent the ne plus ultra of vacuousness as far as I’m concerned)
The points I would like to put forward based on what you say above are:
1). I agree about the ‘lack of facts’ from all quarters, where some sort of metric is used, it is probably dodgy and plucked out of a hat.
2) You mention the two ‘camps’ but there are other ‘camps that are not in the debate, particularly the Left ‘camp’ for leaving (which I would be close to), so it is a bit like an American election where alternative parties get no air time, barely democratic. I also believe that Corbyn, staunchly anti-EU from ’75 onwards has muzzled himself in order to give a spurious impression of unity in a Labour Party that is largely Blairite and neoliberal -he could have led a progressive ‘Out’ Campaign but would not have had the Party behind him. A Left out campaign could have claimed most of the UKIP support.
3) On the issue of immigration the EU has been all over the place with people like Tusk dancing to different tunes (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/donald-tusk-economic-migrants-do-not-come-to-europe). First it was: ‘Yes, come in’ then: ‘No, don’t.’
The EU is ageing , we need young people to come here but NOT in an austerity environment. The combination of austerity and immigration is driving the rise of neo-fascist groups and the EU is NOT acknowledging this.
4) As for employee rights-this seems to me the most bizarre argument given the process of ‘internal devaluation’ taking place all over the EU. There have been two months of riots and protests all over France on this issue with the ‘Nuit Debout’ movement still going. In fact the police are starting to get angry that they have to police this daily whilst being victims of the very thing the protest is about! here in the UK we’ve had a worsening of employment conditions with zero hour contracts and longer working hours -how did the EU intervene here? The EU is obsessed with the failed idea that ‘internal devaluation’ will make countries more ‘competitive’. Utter madness.
5) Change is needed. I believe this change will not happen unless the ossified economic thinking of the EU is thoroughly shaken. The Left has failed to do this, although in ’75 it was more prescient. The two ‘camps’ that really represent nobody have failed to articulate anything worthwhile, so change will have to come from grass roots movements-I believe a leave result could create this once people realise that the ‘Leave camp’ has lied to them. To some extent I am following a dialectical approach here, where we will see the Emporer’s new clothes more clearly. We need a new Left to emerge out of this. Already we’ve seen Syriza and now Podemos having to ‘moderate’ their stance to accomodate the EU narrative, without the EU this moderation would not be needed and capital could be more effectively challenged. Progressive who are pro EU are being fooled by bogus notions of ‘internationalism’ which has been appropriated by globalised capital.
6). In 1975 (as a 15 year old 0 I took part in a school debate supporting the ‘OUT’ side which was then supported by senior Labour Party figure like Tony Benn, peter Shore and Michael Foot. All real intellectuals and politician thinkers-and certainly prophetic as far as the EU is concerned. Compare then to now and the decent into utter hollow, vacuous non-debates becomes apparent.
7) I agree with you, Richard, that the present referendum is an egregious example of political failure and the decline of real politics as the political sphere has been degraded to an arm-pit farting contest.
I think James s’ point above in his last sentence is a good one but so far the Left has failed to articulate what, in my view, it needs to.
Bang on Simon, everything you say is what I feel is right.
I agree with your points Simon added to the disgusting treatment of Greece by the EU-probably Brexit for me.
To clarify; I don’t associate myself with the Brexit camp’s arguments or motivation, I should not have used the B word-shame on me!!
I agree …I saw the writing on the wall when I saw what was meted out to Greece.
I agree that the ideology of neo-liberalism is the main problem,
I agree that the people of Britain have been protected by membership of the EU from the full brunt of neo-liberalism,
Britain is probably the most neo-liberal state in the world,
half the Tories want to leave Europe so they can finish turning Britain into a neo-liberal Utopia,
the other half of the Tories want to remain in Europe so as to continue marching in step with Washington in turning the whole planet into a neo-liberal Utopia,
I fear Brexit will only result in the Left of Britain being isolated from the Left across Europe,
I agree that the EU leadership is horribly in thrall to the ideology of neo-liberalism, as is Washington and Westminster,
but I have to point out that there is a groundswell of opposition to neo-liberalism in the populations of European member states and the US,
for us the EU is an organisational framework that is being used against us but could be harnessed by us, leaving at this point seems to be just giving up and accepting defeat,
I utterly detest the twaddle being spouted by Cameron and Johnson, both avoid mention of their true agendas,
I would like to hear more from Caroline Lucas and Jeremy Corbyn but unfortunately they are both drowned out by the foghorn of the right leaning media,
people on the left who imagine Brexit to be a panacea are sleepwalking into a trap set to ensnare people with a rather narrow world view,
the only people who would benefit from Brexit would be the rest of Europe, in one stroke they would rid themselves of the consistently right wing neo-liberal influence of Westminster!
in the event of Brexit I imagine Britain to be just a tax haven and a defacto 51st US state, basically the Tory dream realised!
Disagree, voting in will cut off all chance of changing anything. I think you give too much credence to the ability of Europe to reform itself, and are over playing the chance of the far right locking us in to a future of Victorian ideals.
@ Matt
I agree with most of what you argue. However, you neglect the most important point for me which is that legislation and trade deals agreed in the EU cannot be reversed by a future democratically elected UK government. So our most neoliberal of Tory governments cannot lock us permanently into an equivalent bi-lateral TTIP-type deal because a future Labour government could withdraw from the deal. In contrast, remaining in an EU which had ratified TTIP, TISA, Ceta and the rest would be binding and irreversible.
firstly I wasn’t arguing anything, I was just expressing my viewpoint,
I don’t like TTIP, neither does anyone else it would seem!
it does seem rather odd to leave the EU because of a trade treaty that hasn’t been and may not be agreed and is only a small part of being in the EU,
TTIP will only succeed if every one of the 28 States in the EU accept it and based on the rancour it is generating I don’t think it will,
This blog sums up in a very reasonable way why we should stay in the
EU and I support it.
I have just finished reading that silly leaflet that came through my door recently and Richard’s blog fills the gap for me.
A few comments:
I do hope that what I perceive as the ‘Americanisation’ of the EU market is stopped and that the ‘European way’ – fully utilizing the citizens rights it has granted continue to be used and grow. Markets work best when everyone benefits. It would be great to see the EU deny corporations the right to be seen as citizen individuals too.
My second comment is just some thoughts on the nature of immigration and its perceived role in the debate.
I recently read that for every 100 immigrants who come into the country, around twenty-three established British EU citizens lost their jobs. I’m not sure if this is true. But those who refer to immigration as a means to justify leaving might be aware of it.
But what I’m struck by is that those who bang on about immigration are focussing on the wrong area. I contend that immigration itself is not the cause of a loss of jobs or a problem in itself.
Rather it is how those immigrants are utilised by businesses and businesspeople in search of cost cutting. It is the behaviour of the market – not the immigrants themselves or the process that enables them to be here.
So rather than just blaming ‘immigration’ why do we not just point the finger at the ‘market’. ‘business’ or the Institute of Directors or the CBI who moan about limiting it – which is what they always do.
There is no reason in my view as to why immigrants need to be on lower wages than already employed people other than to cut costs. It is also an abuse of the immigrants themselves in my view and also invites the Government to subsidise bad wages with benefits.
The use of immigrants by business in the UK is just plain cynical in my view.
The immigration debate seems blind on this issue and it is about time it was opened up more.
So far off the mark with immigration, of course it’s a reason why wages have been suppressed, why has so much manufacturing gone to China. It’s not just about the economic argument too, it’s a social cohesion one too. Unless we a prepared in this country to form a written constitution when we have voted to leave in my opinion there is only trouble ahead for the next generation. Progressive thinking is what is needed to build up countries that are economically different to ours, Germany could take the lead by restricting exports so poorer nations of Europe can build there own infrastructure and manufacturing base.
I agree – the blame lies with the business owners who are so eager to exploit the willingness of these migrants to work for lower wages. These wages might be relatively low here, but are good when compared with what they would earn in their homelands. Isn’t the ultimate aim of the EU to raise the living standards in the poorere countries? If that aim succeeds there will be far fewer people migrating for economic reasons. Am I being ridiculously naive here?
I see the driver of immigration from within Europe being the neo-liberal policies that have been inflicted upon the states that have recently joined the EU,
to qualify for membership these states have had to submit to austerity and privatisation, foreign capital has flooded into these countries and snapped up any assets up for grabs, their social security, education and healthcare systems have been gutted, the cost of living has risen and employment prospects are poor,
since 2008 the same goes for immigrants from southern Europe, their home countries are being liberally beaten with the neo-liberal stick, bailout conditions imposed by the Troika,
immigration from outside of the EU is driven by a combination of American warmongering, droughts and crop failures due to the onset of climate change and predatory lending to developing countries that bleed their economies to fund interest payments,
the policies and financial shenanigans of the West and Northern Europe are making these countries unpleasant places to live, in effect we are driving these people towards us through our actions,
stop crucifying these countries and a great deal of the migrants will return home,
Matt
I am with you all the way with everything you’ve said.
But as we rightly reject and turn away from these issues, what are we actually walking towards instead?
There is a lot of passion in this debate but I would caution anyone to temper it with their heads as well.
Submit to a totalitarian Europe run by “Technocrats” – no way!
The EU is institution is corrupt ….and needs to be torn down and replaced with something that does truly represent the people of Europe. The EU is slavishly following the edicts of the shifty untrustworthy Peter Sutherland, who has destroyed.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/are-irish-taxpayers-about-bail-out-goldman-peter-sutherland-stealing-his-own-people-give-vam
http://irishsavant.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/faustian-pact-of-suds.html
This “gentlemen” wishes to use the refugee crisis to replace all the rich diverse cultures of Europe with a multicultural sludge.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395
Muslims should be free to practice their religion in the UK and should not be discriminated against, but…. the community needs to respect accept criticism and get a grip on “Wahhabism”, the edicts of which are not just incompatible with Western Civilization but any form of Civilization.
It would seem impossible to negotiate with the followers of this sect of Islam as it would be to negotiate with the Spanish Inquisition.
In this context, I pleased to see that Khan has stopped lambasting Trump. Frank and honest discussion is required. I f we are serious about maintaining freedom of speech there can be no “no go areas” whether these are tangible … cities, towns or villages or intangible
religious, political or cultural.
An excellent post Richard, I think you’ve stated the real situation re the EU, from a progressive point of view, in a nutshell. I’m certainly voting to stay in, despite concerns about things like TTIP, and the EU’s treatment of Greece. Your point about how neoliberalism would’ve happened here EU or no EU is extremely important; I wish all the anti Tory left wingers I’ve seen on FB stating that the EU is nothing more than a tool of the free market right would take it on board.
For myself, what I find utterly depressing about this issue is the brazen dishonesty and cynicism of the Leave campaign, and I am at a loss to explain why anyone of a progressive political PoV can bring themselves to be in the same camp as people like Matthew Elliot, IDS, Grayling and Farage. I’ve actually seen people on FB commemorating the miners strike who are clearly bitterly anti Tory cheering on people like Farage and Daniel Hannan in their anti EU statements.
Simon and James, with all due respect, I think you need to really think this through very carefully. As BenM notes, the idea that Britain is more democratic than the EU so we can more easily free ourselves from free market dogma if we leave the EU, is just not true. Given the fact that under FPTP all it takes to win is the ability to ‘fool some of the people some of the time’ the right will always have an advantage in most elections, and given the gerrymandering, suppression of opposing viewpoints in the media, and willingness to break electoral law already shown by the Tories, this is only going to get worse I’m afraid.
Even if this referendum can only be seen as a choice between the lesser of two evils, a right wing dominated Britain outside the EU, or Britain inside the EU, (with all its faults), I know which one I’m choosing.
Whether with first past post or not, the right do not have a stranglehold on this country, even with 80% of the media on their side. They just won, they have had to go back on two major policies recently, if they moved more to the right they would not last two minutes, that’s why if Boris got in power on the back of us exiting Europe he would be blessing for the left.
‘I am at a loss to explain why anyone of a progressive political PoV can bring themselves to be in the same camp as people like Matthew Elliot, IDS, Grayling and Farage ‘
Sickof – I made it clear that my reasons for voting Leave were not open to the implication that one is thereby ‘joining’ any camp. The Brexit Camp is dominated by a debate so dummed-down that it resembles the Le grand Petomane at the height of his carreer!
The question I feel you should be asking is why the Left has failed so miserable to find a voice on this issue.
Quote from an rs21 articel (lost the link):
“”Given the short timescale and the failure of the far left to cohere around the issue, it will have minimal influence on the outcome of the vote. So the concrete question of what is in the long term interests of the working class is largely reduced to which stance would best enable us to independently intervene with socialist arguments and prepare us to deal with the aftermath. That means looking at what we can say and do and who we aim to say it to and do it with.
Whichever way individual socialists and groups decide to vote, we should not lose sight of the fact that our united campaigning for migrant solidarity, for genuine democracy, against austerity, and against neoliberalism puts in opposition to the establishment in both referendum camps.”
Replying here to your several posts Simon (because I think, says he smugly, that we are that rare beast – a Leftie struggling to put forward a sane argument in all this. I simply wanted to draw your (and Richard’s) attention to a very good piece by Paul Mason in the Graun on, I think, Monday where he sets out said Left argument succinctly but plumps, at the mo, and only just, for remain or maybe abstain…
BUT, alone amongst commentators I think, in the event of the gap between in and out remaining less that 7%, he predicts an orchestrated run on the pound, another flurry of the great and good warning of the folly of Brexit…AND a late intervention by Juncker who will suddenly remember the card he forgot to discard when last round tha negotiating table with Cameron….a card that Cameron wanted to make up his hand….’the suspension of the Social Chapter, or further opt outs which favour the rich over the poor’.?? (To this hardened cynic this does not seem beyond the bounds of possibility).
If that intervention comes, then Mason sees no point in Remaining and fighting the good fight. Interested to hear if you saw it, and interested to hear if Richard had, and had any specific comment to make on that last point.
One where I disagree with Paul
Simon, I realise you wouldn’t be seen dead in the company of most of the Leave campaign, (neither would I), but the point I’m making is that those on the left who are going to vote Out are deceiving themselves if they think, from a progressive PoV, they will be better able to resist the free market fundamentalism and aggressive nationalism represented by Ukip and the anti EU Tories.
The EU, despite TTIP (which it seems may well be scuppered by popular pressure from within the EU itself), is not promoting the regulation free libertarian ‘race to the bottom’ type of capitalism the UK right will try and push on us if we leave the EU. There are significant areas of environmental and employee legislation the EU has given us which the free market ‘fundies’ would get rid of in the name of ‘regaining our freedom’, and other such rubbish.
You say yourself that the Brexit campaign is incredibly stupid; well, yes, and utterly dishonest too. Not that I’ve any time for Cameron, but at least some of those campaigning to Remain, like Scientists for the EU, and
Healthier in the EU, are producing intelligent, well researched arguments for remaining. That’s more than any of the Out camp are. You don’t like the establishment in both referendum camps, but let’s be frank, the establishment lot in Remain are less appalling than those in the Leave camp.
As I said, to vote out is to ally yourself with the very worst of the UK right wing.
The brexit film is an utter disgrace, although I’m in favour of us leaving, how can they come up with such utter garbage. I had to turn off at the point where the film goes on about how post war governments conspired to control our lives, this is criminal to say this, intact it’s treason. We the people demanded change and forced governments to do it, our ancestors had not died in their hundreds of thousands to preserve the Victorian values, through the rise of unions the people demanded a Britain that worked for them. The right wing brexiters are an utter bunch of shits
I admit I have managed to miss this
Maybe I should search it out
Sounds like it’s not worth bothering!
I won’t watch that then! I agree the Brexit ‘camp’ is as low-life as it gets but so is the in camp, both reaching levels of illiteracy never before known in political life.
The bullshiting Brexit gang need to be reminded that it was Churchill who was heckled after the war by working class people who had put their lives on the line as illustrated in Ken Loaches recent documentary.
I’m voting out as well but I wouldn’t touch the Brexit lot with a barge pole long enough to reach Mars. What a dumbed-down, condescending tidal wave of effluence. People deserve better than being treated like a rabble but our politicians can’t do anything else but take the proverbial ‘piss’. Like you, James, I’m bloody angry. Johnson’s ‘arm pit farting’ is pitiful and an insult to the human faculty of thought.
James, why be surprised the Brexit film is such utter rubbish? Do you really expect anything else from a bunch of people who use Goebbel’s methods to try and win? They are shameless, brazen liars and post truth fantasists who represent hardline free market fundamentalism and nationalism. The two belief sets which gave us WW1, the Wall Street Crash, and then WWII with all the accompanying misery and destruction.
As you say, they are ‘an utter bunch…….’ I couldn’t agree more, which is one of the principal reasons I will be voting to stay in the EU.
Well the EU in conjunction with Global Banking is doing a fine job of ‘invading Greece’ using the Banks not Tanks approach – do you really prefer the company of Lagarde and the Troika?
This is petty
Such things are of the moment
For heaven’s sake let’s look at bigger pictures
As people observe above the contest in which we get to vote appears to be technocrats vs sociopaths. I have no confidence that in the event of Brexit the left will be able to organise itself into a coherent potent force that can win an election in England & Wales. More likely it will be full speed ahead for Ayn Rand’s fantasy island with the media whipping in just enough support to keep the lunatics on course.
I don’t like many aspects of the Commission and how it operates but I feel it’s a more reformable entity than this small with it’s narrow obsession with the second half of the nineteenth century and a fatal attraction to right wing politics. The Commission has at least recognised the value of the common good occasionally trumps ownership, something the Tory party has never come to terms with.
It’s the technocrats for me, but only tactically.
John-I understand your dilemma-we all feel it. But as an OUT voter I feel a little more confident that that the Left will mobilise as austerity politics is being outed as the emporers new clothes after 40 years. The Tories know that they can’t push much further with benefit cuts which is why they backed down on recent disability cuts and there are signs that the young will not stand for student debt followed by mortgage slavery. So if it is OUT who ever takes over will have to tread carefully here. France is in uproar at present with a so-called Socialist(ffs) Government saying there is no U-turn on ‘internal devaluation’ affecting working conditions and rights and the protests/riots have been going on for two months with no sign of abating.
I’m clear now is the time to move. Corbyn has this wrong – he’s made a fatal error by not sticking to his convictions and acting like a ‘politician.’
Here here – Corbyn has wanted out for many years. He has had to bow to the neo-liberals within the Labour Party. What does that tell you?
It says to me if you value freedom the most and you are a Libertarian Leftie then BREXIT is a must!
The EU is not the only way to cooperate with other European countries. One can be pro Europe without being pro EU. This is ignored by the Remain campaign for obvious reasons. We are already partly out by not being part of the Euro Zone. And since
the USA provides the backbone of NATO we are partly out heretoo. Have you forgotten RM that the EU Accounts have been consistently Qualified, and whistle blowers to its corruption hounded?
Your usual drivel when it comes to politics
And you do not even understand the difference between an accounts qualification at EU level and in corporate accounting
And yes it is corruption hounded – so is every large organisation including the UK government. Next?
The first part of this article http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory sums up much of my thinking, I will vote leave despite a truly dire campaign. Much of the left argument for in, in my opinion, can be summed by we can’t leave we would be at the mercy of the Tories (assuming no Labour gov’t), if we stay in we can influence the EU for good (assuming Labour gov’t), completely contradictory.
I disagree with the second part because the shock of a leave vote would really send the whole political system into a much needed spin and coupled with things like the election expenses scandal, wafer thin Tory majority, potential split in that party, I very much doubt we will have to wait till 2020 for another election. A point that Mason argued in a different context.
In addition to this the withdrawal would not happen overnight, it would probably take a couple of years at least
Looks like Tory Brexiters are joining forces with Labour and have added an addendum to the Queens speech regarding protecting the NHS against the potentially irreversible ravages of TTIP.
Something good from the Brexit camp!
I think this shows the true complexity of the situation which cannot be reduced to a simple Left/Right bifurcation.
I agree with Graham (above), ‘the end of normal’ needs to be hastened by an OUT vote.
See: http://www.rt.com/uk/343604-cameron-brexit-nhs-ttip/
‘In an unusual move against the prime minister, the Conservative Eurosceptics say they will back an opposition amendment demanding the state-funded health service be protected from the controversial Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).’
Fascinating situation indeed.
Simon
I’m with you on this one. TTIP will destroy what is left of the NHS…
You will have no choice on this if you “Remain”.
Nick
One or two additional points.
The EU is not the Euro. (As we know, the fact that they use it does not mean they issue it – they don’t.)
Parliament is supreme. In effect it is the highest court in the land and so no treaty can ever be for ever.
May I suggest we think of British younger people – very few of whom, if polls are to be believed, are in favour of Brexit – and no wonder.
They are already the most financially indebted generation in history, opportunities for wage growth are worse than ever and yet, to this toxic mix, some of their seniors are proposing isolation from Europe as the icing on the cake.
Second, Brexit is likely to require a pervasive and all encompassing effort by the government in order to minimise its effects. I can see very little attention being paid to any reforming agenda elsewhere on anything at all. And we know this will last two years and probably longer still. That is so much icing on the cake as to obliterate the cake entirely – and an even worse legacy to our youth.
Oh dear………….
Look, I for one remain deeply sceptical of the trajectory of the EU as a project but NOW is NOT the time to leave.
I say again that that it is not just Europe whose economy is moribund – just about everywhere there is some form of economic issue that has been left over from the 2008 crash. Why did the Chinese dump their steel on the market for example? Was it a lack of world wide demand because of austerity everywhere perhaps? Has Richard not informed us recently about the parlous state of the ‘GLOBAL’ freight carrying business? Come on!!!
The 2008 crash was NOT created in the EU (it was created the United States actually), but it certainly exacerbated underlying weaknesses in the structure of the EU.
The best time to leave will be when there is more stability in the world economy and especially when austerity policies are halted globally. All austerity is doing is enabling more arbitrage to take place as traders take advantage of desperate producers trying to keep their heads above the water.
If BREXIT occurred, and there was further fragmentation in the area the financial and commodity markets would be the only winners and the jobs , wages etc., of real people would just suffer more. The competitive angle of this sort of behaviour would also exacerbate regional tensions and with plenty of far-right groups still in Europe to take advantage of people’s disillusionment, things could get out of hand.
Just as an example of how things really work – did anyone watch Grayson Perry’s documentary about men last night? He was having dinner with someone high up the financial sector food chain who – whilst being very urbane, honest and nice – when Perry mentioned the 2008 crash, the gentleman concerned recounted it as a wonderful time for his line of work and spoke enthusiastically of the joys of economic destruction and upheaval! Watch it and hopefully the penny will drop.
So once again to the BREXITERs here I say be careful of what you wish for. You might think BREXIT is good because it addresses your short term concerns and that is all there is to it. But who else benefits (see above)?
As for me, my position is clear (and this is what I would want Labour or the Greens to do):
1) Stay in for now.
2) Push for improvements/reform and challenge ECB/EU opacity and check out the
underlying assumptions behind immigration and other policies (too Neo-liberal?)
3) Seek an end to austerity NOW in Europe.
4) Consider abandoning the Euro – in fact sod it – lets get rid of it and restore
financial sovereignty to all EU states.
5) Get cross-party agreement for all UK MEPs to push for the same agenda.
6) Give all of this a reasonable timescale.
7) Then and only then push for exit or a significant modification to our terms.
Corbyn may not like this as with many on the Left, but if the Left is to live up to its apparent time honoured role as a scourge of fascism, it surely cannot act in a way that may precipitate the growth of fascism? Is that what Corbyn is aware of and if so is that not the marque of a good statesman?
As for TTIP – it is obvious to me that the biggest threat to this advancing are the rabidly free market Tories whom many of you voted for (certainly not me!!!) Here we are recently being told that TTIP is ‘dead in the water’ and then Davey boy talks about it as though it is still viable!! Don’t you think that is interesting?
It seems to me that TTIP will happen with or without the EU as the Tories are mad keen on it. Perhaps? I’d say so. The real enemy is within, not without (the Tories and their financial hinterland in London) not the EU. The EU has problems but is our system of Government any better? Should we not fix that first?
This whole vote is in reality just a sprat to catch a mackerel – it was designed to get you to vote Tory. Now the Tories have to deliver because it will affect the 2020 election won’t it?
But is it really necessary? No.
Does it draw our attention away from greater home-grown injustices and insults to democracy? Oh yes!!
I am only taking part now in order to stop ignorance and short sightedness from winning.
Interesting
I’m not sure the age divide gets the proper attention in this, it all seems to be boomers vs type talk. There’s the usual mockery of young people for being idealistic and smirking about 6th form debating standards. This ignores the much wider palate of views and ideas that are available to young people now. They instinctively get things that people of my generation(49) and older seem to struggle with. Personally I think that the ageing process brings with it a gradual increase in small c conservatism. Whereas young people don’t see retreating behind walls and shutters as progress.
The major challenges facing the human race are on a global scale and disengaging from that stage isn’t a solution. Yes the EU needs reform but it’s the same reform that’s needed everywhere, and that’s an end to neo liberalism. The younger you are the bigger the stake you have in this. Yet most voters will be dead and gone before the worst of predictions can come to pass.