I have always presumed that most people are empathic and as a result capable of imagining themselves walking in another shoes. More than that, I presume that when necessary people do actually do just that: that is people do, when reflecting on an issue consider the interests of others as well as themselves.
It has been disappointing then to find so many people have over the last few days posted comments on this site, particularly in the context of what is happening in Greece, that have, to say the least, not only placed self interest at the heart of the commentator's concern, but have shown remarkably little consideration for the interests of others, including those Greek people who could have had no involvement in creating the dilemma their economy now faces.
Despite all the rumours put about by right wing libertarians I try to post as many of the comments presented for publication on this site as possible. Some commentators are blocked as a matter of course: their apparently mild initial comments almost invariably lead to aggressive or inappropriate comments as follow ups. Others are obvious fakes, or are straightforwardly abusive and they get deleted straight away.
But those that take time, and make my heart sink, are submitted by those who seem to know at least something about tax or accounting, and yet show a remarkable lack of consideration for others, particularly if they are less well off, for whatever reason.
I try to be tolerant but when on average day I read between 50 and 100 comments and on occasion I show my irritation. I do not apologise for that: if this blog is about anything it is about speaking truth to power, and sometimes that requires a certain bluntness.
If those receiving such a retort persist in making such comments thereafter I do delete their comments, with a heavy heart but without hesitation, whilst trying to make a quiet plea to those who are deleted to think a little more about the interests of others.
Those on question have been warned.
And for the record, before the inevitable comments are made, I do frequently consider the needs of the well off, but they already seem more than capable of looking after themselves at expense to everyone else so sympathy is not required.
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“including those Greek people who could have had no involvement in creating the dilemma their economy now faces”
Unfortunately that’s where your argument falters. Greece is a democracy. It votes for its governments. It gorged on easy credit when it was available. So everything you say that follows is wrong.
I am a democrat
But it does not follow that the government is the agent of the people
It isn’t
Governments stand independent of the people who elect them. That is precisely why we can and do vote them out of office
I am afraid to say it is you who has got all the logic wrong
But if I have not answer me this: are all the members of a corporation liable for its actions since they have a vote? If not, why not?
Richard, since when do all members of a corporation have a vote? If you are referring to shareholders (who may have a vote) then yes they are liable. Share holders lose their money if the corporation goes bankrupt.
The members of a corporation are shareholders. No one else is
And they lose their capital
But they do not pick up the bill for the insolvency
The Greeks are being asked to do that
Do you always miss the point so spectacularly?
Ed-I somehow doubt that the 300,000 people who have had their electricity cut off in Greece ‘have gorged’ on credit, nor the fifty% of young people who cannot find work and those that are left to scavenge out of rubbish bins, let alone those dying because of health care denied. Comments like yours reduce the flesh and bone of human reality to vaporous abstractions. We do know now that, in the words of economist John Weeks, that “Mainstream economics serves the rich, obscures reality and distorts policy.”
So who is doing the gorging?
I think it’s 60% of young Greek people Ed does not care about
I think the EU will shortly, if they are not already, start to destabilise the new Greek government.
Not to worry. I note a short article in ZH this morning:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-27/greece-begins-great-pivot-toward-russia
Food for thought. Maybe even the EU/US alliance/warmachine may take note. I doubt it.
“…are all the members of a corporation liable for its actions since they have a vote? If not, why not?”
Some loose terminology here. LLPs have members, companies have shareholders. Or do you mean the officers of a company?
Officers can be held liable for their actions, either through the Companies Act or other statute.
Shareholders can be laible, but their liability is ‘limited’ (the clue being that it’s a ‘Limited liability’ company) to their financial investment. At least they stand to lose their investment.
To that extent they are probably more liable than the Greek people who voted succesive governments that ran deficits from 1974 onwards with extravagent spending on a bloated public sector and the armed forces (examples being that it was possible to retire on a full pension at age 57, being able to pass on a deceased father’s pension to unmarried daughters, 6 days extra holiday if you used a computer at work! and so on; the OECD first warning Greece its pension spending was unsustainable in 1983; Greece having the second highest GDP expenditure on the armed forces in NATO (Only the USA was higher)).
Perhaps its not the Greek people’s fault. Offer anyone the choice of a harsh reality or an unsustainable fantasy and they will frequently opt for the latter, a fact both you and the Labour party depend on.
Just like France a few years ago, Geece has now opted for socialist make-believe where evil nasty rich people/businesses will be forced to ‘pay their fair share’ and milk and honey will magically start to flow. As with France, I’m sure it will take only a few years before reality dawns and the populace turns on its current heroes and looks for a new dream-peddler.
Geoff
I wrote a blog about you this morning
But you still show your refusal to face the truth, even down to the membership of limited companies
This was your last comment unless you engage with some indication of
a) truth telling
b) consideration for others
Richard
‘Greek people who could have had no involvement in creating the dilemma their economy now faces’
The Greek people have long enjoyed some of the most generous social benefits of any European nation. They have also tolerated, and benefitted from , a culture that has viewed payment of tax as an option, rather than obligation. That may well be the fault of the State, but to say the population has not been involved with that is incorrect.
The Greek population enjoys a state retirement age of 61-63, one of the lowest in Europe (Germany by way of comparison is 65-67)
A Greek pensioner requires 35 years of service to earn a full pension. A German pensioner requires 45 years
A Greek pensioner receives, on average, 80% of their annual wage as a pension. A German pensioner receives 46%
A Greek pensioner receives 14 pension payments per year. A German pensioner receives 12
I agree: all that needs reform
So?
Does that need we need to impose unemployment on 60% of young Greeks so they will never qualify for a pension?
Is that what you want?
Reform and debt waiver need to go hand in hand. It cannot be one without the other
I find it absolutely incredible that we end up comparing retirement ages like this. Such posters talk as if they want us all to work up to 80!! Or that pensions are a bad idea (they are actually a good idea managed badly in my opinion). Is this jealousy? Resentment?
Why is it that people increaslingly seem to compete to have less – rather than more or at least a fair share!! It’s almost like a lemming mentality. Too many of us seem to have given up the right to have a decent standard of living!! The good old British ‘I’m happy with my lot’ & doff my cap attitude still lives on.
Rather than compare or moan about Greek pension arrangements, why not read some books by Satyajit Das (Extreme Money & Trader, Guns & Money) and look at what the financial sector has recently been up to. Honestly – they’re worth a read.
There are benefits to retiring early – you can then make way for a younger person to have a good job who will pay for your pension from their taxes. This is not a bad system – it’s just a way of ordering an economy/society. Who is to say that any other system is better? Lets consider a few ideas.
Another way to order a society is to make people with jobs work longer and keep those younger folk without a job without work for longer? But you can pay them benefits for longer too. Or you may choose not to. Or then you can blame people for having kids in the first place and say it is their fault for wanting a family whe there is no work for them to do. And as for a house of one’s own if you are young – well – tough.
Or how about getting rid of jobs and pensions altogether from ex-public sector companies so that money can be channelled into corporations and the finance sector so that the CEO’s can earn millions of pounds and huge bonuses can be handed out that can’t actually be taxed properly either?
And that pesky income tax – well if we don’t have to pay that, there is more disposable income for the private sector to get it claws in for expensive insurance schemes ,rip off credit default swaps and other dodgy stuff.
Oh – hang on a minute – these aren’t ideas – they’re actually current policies!!
Note to neo-libs – please form an orderley queue to deny any of this ever happened.
Thanks
I’ve only been into your blog since 2014.
However, looking through past posts, it is clear that you have had a hard time at the hands of the neo-lib orthodox priests who patrol the blogosphere so diligently. You’ve got to give it to them – the neo-libs really know how to stick together and root for their cause. The counter-narrative could learn a thing or two from them.
What you have been through seems rather like what we used to do to metal in our metal work classes at school; you’d heat it up and then place it rapidly into cold water to temper it. So don’t be too hard on yourself Richard. You’ve taken a lot heat (and lots of hot air!!) and yes you are hard but that should mean that those who engage with you should be well informed at least.
But there is a lot of induction in our society – the public are prone to unquestionably taking up generalisations passed on by vested interests and the public tend to then treat it as reality (Adam Curtis and his idea that such messsages are over-simplications made up by politicians comes to mind again). What we need is more deduction. Unreason is very cunning however. Unreason is like fast food – quick and easy – not nutritious – but hey it tastes good!
We could certainly do with more Atticus Finch’s in our world (Harper Lee: To Kill a Mockingbird). But Atticus was a man living comfortably and securely in his world and could afford to be empathetic
What dominates our society though at the moment is fear – Is it me next for the chop? By creating a crisis, our better instincts are stripped away from us and what is left is a cold, calculating core-need for survival where anyone will do as long as it is not me. It’s almost like the politics of the gulag. What a triumph for capitalism to create something formerly attributable to communism in our society!! But this is why I feel the right-wing narrative wins so often – through fear. So much for human progress!
But also take heart Richard in that I sense fear in some of the neo-libs who come onto this blog too; because perhaps for not the first time they are dealing with the fact that their ideology couold actually be wrong.
Having said all that, as long as this version of capitalism continues to fail to deliver for increasing amounts of people some sort of tipping point may occur where empathy does shift because more and more of us will ‘all be in it together’.
I look forward to that tipping point
And thanks
3.5 million words here may have hardened me a bit