Ed Miliband is, according to the Observer, contemplating an EU refredum poll.
That's a big issue.
In or out?
I'll come back to you on that one.
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Another poll, with the inevitable “stay-in” result, would end the “out of the eu” debate for a very long time.
Let’s face it, a “NO” vote is highly unlikely.
The combined publicity from practically all the print media would be to stay in “better in than out”…or “renegotiate” the terms again….like the other members would allow the uk to have its own rules…
The eu itself would bombard the press with adverts to stay in, and also every house would receive a missive from the eu (history)
So, Ed is not so much interested in leaving but in getting another result to stsy in…easily achieved.
John i think it would go the other way. We have had years of negative comment and it’s easier to believe ‘bad things’ than good. Most people are un-informed (they have other interests).
I can’t see many advantages to leaving (the 25 nation anti-Keynesian austerity issue apart).
We are told we should sell more to the BRICs. Good. What is there about being IN the EU that stops a British company selling goods or services to anywhere in the world?
At the moment we are part of the world’s largest economic unit which has almost 500 million people(or 2nd depending on the exchange rate). The eurozone was in surplus until last year. If we are out and our government seeks out trade deals around the world, saying we are 60 million with a less healthy trade balance, are we going to get a better deal?
As for the ‘stifling EU regulations’ , are they not the other side of the coin of supply side economics which (as in the US) would limit holidays and other working conditions including dismissal, exert downsizing in the name of efficiency -well, you know what I mean. What would be the advantage in sabotaging our membership?
Before any referendum can take place the public need to be properly educated on what being inside really means. Are we able to create our own currency via the BofE and have the Treasury spend it into the economy directly, or should we have the commercial banks create money and the government borrow it from them. The advantages of the former over the latter would need to be made plain. I regard Ed and Ed as being as neoliberal as the next man. I can’t see either of them having any enthusiasm for exposing the ruinous sham of our economy for what it is, a system designed to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich. If there’s any referendum I’l bet it won’t be on the real issues. I mean to say, who properly explained the financial consequences of Maastricht to the nation? No-one, I suspect not least because they’d have had to be educated to where they could understand it first, a huge undertaking. Then there’d have been nationwide rioting while the general population burned the banks and razed the City of London to the ground. No, I rather doubt there’ll be any referendum, thinking about it 🙂
How’s Norway fairing at the moment? Maybe that’s your answer.
The UK could do a lot worse than leave the EU and instead join the EEA. The rest of Europe would still wish to trade with us and, as you say, Norway does very nicely.
Our involvement with the EU would then be more like it was meant to be from 1973 until Maastricht – a non-political free trade area.
Fine but 1) they have lots of oil and a small population
2) they have invested the proceeds for the future.
But a former prime Minister did say they are a fax democracy. They have access to the single market but no say in the way it develops.They just get the regulations sent to them.
I think Miliband should commit to a referendum on whether Britain stays in the EU. This was Liberal Democrat policy until recently. It would have mass support and it would expose the Tories who are total hypoocrites on this issue. They a happy to encourage Euroscepticism to the point of xenophobia but their high command don’t actually want to leave the EU because the City and big business want access to the single market. Lots of their backbenders on the other hand would love to exit Europe.
This might seem like opportunism but it’s actually a principled position. There’s a massive democratic deficit in the EU and the British public are entitled to have a vote on the issue of whether this country should stay in an institution which has evolved to become something very different from the broadly Keynesian social democratic EEC of the Seventies.
In such a referendum I would vote to stay in but I don’t think it would be a total tragedy if the Sun and the Mail persuaded the public to leave. We would be free of EU competition directives that are destroying the Post Office to take just one example.
Ideal scenario would be if a critical mass of EU states threatened to leave the EU and/or the Euro unless Chancellor Merkel and the commissars in Brussels re think their ideology.
Assuming we voted to stay in Europe the issue then becomes how to reform the EU to make it democratic. Two reforms suggest themselves. One would be for the united European public to directly elect the President of the Council and for the individual states to directly elect their Commissioner. Europeans would then be able to vote for a social democratic Commission or a free market Commission.
The other problem is what to do about the Central Bank which is out of control and is a bastion of financial dictatorship. My suggestion is that the President of the Council should be given the power to dismiss the ECB Chairman with a snap of his fingers. Ultimate power must lie with elected politicians not technocrats isolated from the real world or you will inevitably have abuse of power.
We must have a Democracy Treaty to replace the abominations of Maastricht and Lisbon.
Another modest additional reform I would suggest of the EU institutions would be to publish the minutes and voting in all Council of Ministers meetings. Someone posting on another forum discussing this issue claims he used to work in Brussels on The Economist’s European Voice and they employed a journalist in Stockholm, where all Govt meetings minutes are published to compare how Ministers said they voted to how they actually did vote- needless to say British Ministers were often economic with the actualite.
Robert some interesting thoughts.
I’m aware I’m being vociferous today so forgive me.
If we left, would you suggest we stayed in the EEA and thus in the single market? Your comment about competition directives hints you would not.
Directly electing the president of the European council is possible although I wonder if candidates from small countries would ever get there. 6 of the 27 have populations have more than 35 million people, the other 21 fewer. What powers would she or he have over the leaders of the member states? Would that limit their power?
On the other hand decision making has been ponderous and slow. Certainly not a superstate as its critics claim.
People often call the EU undemocratic but how does one design a system for representing 502 million people? In the USA legislation is enacted by Congress elected by the people. We have the European Parliament which reflects the differing views of the people of Europe i.e. Green, nationalist, Socialist etc. Richard pointed out their vote on calling for country by country reporting and action on tax havens. But their power is limited and ultimate authority lies with national leaders who, in the last resort can leave the EU.
You ask “how does one design a system for representing 502 million people?” I don’t think we can. I’m coming to the conclusion we can’t do big tribes. Perhaps Schumacher is right and small is beautiful.
It’s FARING Andy !
Norway is ok….for now.
The point is being missed though, in that all the parties, even UKIP, have a vested interest in remaining in the EU.
As they have in the banking system being denied the reforms it, and we, need badly.
The system of banking and politics have problems in common, corruption being the main one in that they are both rotten to the core.
Difficult one. I’ve been a vocal pro European all my politically aware life.
But watching German imposed economic horror within the Eurozone has really rocked the foundation of my regard for the Union itself.
That said, it would be rather hypocritical of me to advocate withdrawal after years of haranguing eurosceptics for their lack of courage when faced with making Britain’s case within the club rather than threatening to run away with the ball on every issue.
It will be an interesting debate.
As I`ve mentioned before I think,I was in totally pro EU up to it`s membership being six to ten members,plus the UK. But when it was expanded beyond that,by bending the rules for joining,plus abandonment the rules on financial control on members governments,and introducing an EU wide currency without fully democratic political and fiscal integration-well to be honest,I think it`s becoming a rather sick joke. Is all that now achievable anyway? Plus the fully free movement of labour,because of language and culture,will always be a problem I suspect.Countries will always try to protect their national interest,as indeed the Germans are doing now,and lets face it,the Greeks too. I do wonder how much of a face saving operation by EU politicians,will actually now rule the day? But I`m an old cynic.
All very games-theopretical—if you think the Tories will propose a referendum before the next election, then you try to propose it before they do as a way of winning votes. But unless Labour is WAY ahead at the next election AND Lab strongly unified in favour (a ‘yes’ campaign would need to start now), then the chances are that the ref result would be NO. My gut feeling tells me Lab will be divided, the Lib-Dems totally m,arginalised and the referendum will be lost–much like that on PR. Even if the euro sinks, the EU will survive. If Britain leaves the EU, it will sink too—unlike Norway, it has no oil. Conclusion: a referendum would be foolish!