This week's edition of 'Mark Steel's in Town' on Radio 4 is well worth listening to. He was in Douglas, Isle of Man, and as he said in his opening comment:
"It is wonderful to be in a place with such a positive attitude, which even during a recession has the sense to invest in one of the few industries that is still booming - fiddling tax. "
All the rest is a footnote to that.
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… including of course the island’s well-known slogan (shared with Jersey): “if you don’t like it, there’s always a boat in the morning”.
The IOM audience found it all hilariously funny.
Odd that, isn’t it?
And bang on the nail
Yes – bang on the nail. And as the biggest laugh of the evening clearly demonstrated, the Manx themselves know only too well that this is indeed what the island is (mostly) about, however much they may try to deny it to outsiders. Funny how it’s OK when a comedian (even one from the UK) says it, but not OK when you or I say it.
The UK government objects to being dictated to by Europe, yet is happy to pressure the Isle of Man to follow the EU tax saving directive, when the island is not even part of the EU. Hypocrisy seems to given opinions oncerning the independent tax jurisdictions.
You are not independent
You’re a Crown Dependency
The key is in the word dependency
The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom and is not represented in the Westminster Parliament. In case you hadn’t noticed, the Bishop of Sodor and Man is the only Bishop who may never sit in the House of Lords.
Who issues the Passport and what does it say on it?
And why does the EU require the UK to impose its tax law on the Isle of Man?
Let’s stop playing games
Oh, and the Bishop argument is also wrong – the CoE has lots of Bishops who may not sit e.g. the Bishop of Dunwich
There is no such See, and has not been for more than one thousand years.
“Suffragan bishop” is a compound noun. The legislation refers to Bishops, and that does not include Suffragan bishops
It is you who is playing games.
The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom or of the EU. It has come to some agreements with the EU but that does not require it to follow slavishly the diktats of the EU Commission on other matters.
I personally think the EU Savings Directive is a step in the right direction, but Parliament’s claim to legitimacy is based on it being deemed the representative of the people and the people whom it represents do not include the Isle of Man. To impose EU regulations on the Isle of Man against their will is jack-boot imperialism.
I am not playing games
You failed to answer real issues – like the fact you are not a country and are recognised as part of the UK – who issues your passports
All the rest is a game – and one that has been exploited by all -including the City of London – for too long
And don’t for a minute think you comply with the EU voluntarily – you have absolutely no choice – because London says so, so you jump – just as a County Council would in the UK
Why not try a little honesty some time?
The Isle of Man is a Crown Dependency. Her Majesty the Queen is the Head of State and is represented on the Island by the Lieutenant Governor, who is appointed by the Crown. So indeed, while not part of the UK, it is not exactly independent.
As such, the UK is ultimately responsible for its ‘good governance’ and has the power to intervene in its affairs if and when it sees fit. That it does not do so to clamp down on tax havenry is no doubt because of the benefit its more obscure financial dealings bring to the City and the unwillingness of HMG to put its own house in order.
Of course I am not a country.
Nor, as you should be aware, am I Manx.
I am scrupulously honest, including in dealing with my tax affairs despite the frequent incompetence (or worse) of the Inland Revenue. So it does not behove you to suggest that I am complicit in tax avoidance or evasion. I merely choose to recognise that the Parliament of the United Kingdom is just that and does not control the Republic of Ireland and other nearby islands.
There are people who incorrectly “recognise” the Isle of Man as part of the UK just as there are those who cannot find Canada on a map – that does not make them right and does not give to you, any more than to me, the right to dictate to a separate part of the British Commonwealth.
I have no idea what you are talking about
But then I very strongly suspect you haven’t either
Ed : Deleted for reason of adding nothing to debate whilst bring gratuitously offensive, in my opinion
*You* were being gratuitously offensive, yet again. I merely explained why you should know I wasn’t Manx.
The Isle of Man is not a part of the UK or a member of the EU – but it is an important part of the CIty which “uses” it for sophisticated tax fiddles.
Treat every statement issued by the Manx government with disdain – the island is a tax haven catering for tax dodgers. Simples.
And never deposit or invest a single penny in this dangerous place.
Richard
I’m surprised that you don’t seem to know the difference between the United Kingdom and Great Britain. Being British doesn’t mean being part of the United Kingdom. You may not like it or agree with it, but it’s a fact. We are a dependency of the British Crown, not of the United Kingdom. The latter is a political union and we are not a part of that.
You also need to swot up on exactly what we “depend” on Britain for as a Crown Dependency. It’s primarily to defend us although the Channel Islands would say that Britain failed miserably at that in 1940.
I know the difference
And so does the EU
Which is why it treats you as for all practical purposes – ignoring the silly semantics of royalty – as part of the UK – which is why we issue your passports and why you do as you’re told on issues such as EU law
Sorry but you are wrong.
The Crown Dependencies are expressly deemed to be part of the UK Common Travel Area solely for the purposes of the British Nationality Act 1972, primarily to help Britain control it’s immigration borders. Look it up. This was done by MUTUAL agreement when Britain joined the EU and when the Crown Dependencies entered into Protocol 3 to the Treaty of Rome. The reason why Britain issues our passports is because we are British subjects, as we have been for about 1000 years. Look it up.
Isn’t is strange how the EU would expressly acknowledge the correct relationship between the UK and the Crown Dependencies if we are nothing more than “County Councils”? Seems that you are the only one who doesn’t accept the facts.
British subjects
But not British
Pull the other one
A charade for the convenience of the City of London has been played
And you’ve either fallen for it or promote it
British subjects yes, part of the UK no.
You know the facts but choose to disregard them.
It’s your blog and so it’s your prerogative, but trying to argue that you are right on this one is pointless. The evidence is stacked against you.
And that’s why you comply completely with the demands of the EU is it at the request of the UK?
And all your laws are approved in London?
Pull the other one……
My passport says Isle of Man – British Islands. It was issued by the Manx Government and instead of the soveriegn requesting protection for the holder, the Lieutenant-Governor does. In the case of full Manx residents with no EU-blood or mud relatives there is a distinctive red cross through the front page indicating that they do not enjoy EU benefits of residency or work. I’m not sure how this fits with the debate going on here, but am offering it up as example of how the Manx situation differs.
If I asked for a passport as a UK citizen in the IoM – as I could – it would say exactly the same thing
It proves nothing
The Isle of Man government cherry picks EU and UK law to suit and protect the island´s finacial services industry – particularly those involving consumer protection and trading standards.
And the malignant influence of the City is ever present controling and directing the fortunes of this curious island ….
Since we are reliably informed the IoM is independent, & since its existence does us nothing but harm financially, why are we offering IoM citizens passports or anything ?
Surely it is time for them to complete their total independence? (for passport, VAT & all other purposes. If they choose not to join the EU I’m sure we can afford guards at Holyhead).
It is nonsense to suggest that for all practical purposes the Isle of Man is treated as part of the UK. It does not benefit from EU farm subsidies, for one thing
Saying such things is just stupid
You are playing with trivia
The reality is that the IoM does what it is told to do by London and the EU
That is my point
And it is very obviously true
Interesting to see how this thread has been subtly side-tracked from its original point – that the Isle of Man has a “booming industry – fiddling tax” – to a mostly irrelevant argument over the island’s anachronistic relations with the UK and the EU. From which I assume that those responsible for this diversion are happy with the status quo and have no interest in changing it. It might be clearer if they said so.
For what it’s worth however, this is how the IOM government sees its relationships:
“Our relationship with the United Kingdom
“The Isle of Man is an internally self-governing dependency of the British Crown and its people are British citizens. The Crown has ultimate responsibility for the ‘good government’ of the Island and it acts on the advice of Ministers of the UK Government in their capacity as Privy Councillors.
“The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom but is a territory for whose international relations the United Kingdom is responsible in international law. The United Kingdom is responsible for the defence of the Isle of Man and for providing consular services. The Island makes an annual contribution to the United Kingdom in recognition of defence and other common services provided on its behalf.
“The Lieutenant Governor is the Crown’s representative on the Island. The Island’s Government is consulted before any international treaty which would affect the Island is agreed by the United Kingdom.
“Our relationship with the European Union
“The Isle of Man is not part of the European Union but it has a special, limited, relationship with the EU set out in Protocol 3 to the United Kingdom’s Treaty of Accession.
“Under Protocol 3, the Isle of Man is part of the customs territory of the Union. It follows that there is free movement of industrial and agricultural goods in trade between the Island and the Union. The Isle of Man neither contributes to, nor receives from, the funds of the European Union, thus guaranteeing the Isle of Man’s fiscal independence. …”
http://www.gov.im/isleofman/externalrelations.xml
Also, on legal issues:
“Tynwald has power to pass Acts on any subject, but all Acts of Tynwald require the Assent of the Queen. The United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster still legislates for the Island in respect of some subjects which are of common concern to the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom, such as defence, nationality and immigration.
“Although the Isle of Man is largely autonomous, the United Kingdom remains responsible for the Island’s defence and international relations. EU law has direct application to the Isle of Man only for very limited purposes, in accordance with Protocol 3 to the 1972 Act of Accession.
“The Manx Appeal Court (the Staff of Government Division) consists of the Deemsters and the Judge of Appeal, a part-time position filled by an English QC. The final appeal, one that is rarely pursued, is to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London.”
http://www.gov.im/isleofman/legalsystem.xml
Richard
Exactly how is it “so obviously true”?
The rights and powers of the UK government and the EU in relation to the Crown Dependencies are very clear. We can be asked and cajoled into doing things. We cannot be told. The fact that we have decided to accede to certain requests from the UK and the EU does not mean that they legislated for us. It means that the islands prefer to be decent and responsible neighbours rather than stick two fingers up to the UK and the EU.
Your knowledge of our constitutions and of our constitutional rights can seemingly be written on the back of a postage stamp. Maybe if you got that bit right, you might not come out with half the factual errors that you spout.
It doesn’t seem that your knowledge of offshore trusts is up to speed either.
You pretend you have choice
I know as I have been repeatedly told it is so that you have none
And the evidence of you continually doing what is demanded is that you really know that is the case too, but that everyone likes to keep up the nice pretence that it is otherwise
So let us go with the fact that the form is as you say and the substance is as I say, and at the end of the day it is substance that matters
@getbucket
And neither is the Isle of Man subject to the restrictions of EU farm production quotas – allowing their farmers to produce as much as they want …
Another example of having cake and eating it?
Guernsey, Jersey and the IOM are NOT part of Great Britain, the UK or the EU no matter how much Richard Murphy would wish it was otherwise. We in Guernsey are doing much more business outside the EU of which the corrupt self serving EU will have zero influence and given time I am reasonably confident that the whole sorry institution will undoubtedly implode on itself. Murphy despises our low tax base in these Island which is possible because here in Guernsey at least we have no government borrowing or debt whatsoever Zero, zilch. Richard Murphy lives in a country that is bankrupt and will take years to recover and pay of its debts, part of the reason it is bankrupt is because of people like him, who drive away inward investment and subsequently jobs to other places that respect entrepreneurs and the wealth generators and who don’t try and tax them out of existence. As a member of the Guernsey government I am often present when we meet with UK officials and on the very odd occasions when Murphy’s name comes up they smile and dismiss Mr Murphy and his bunch as a bit of a joke, most of his predictions of our demise and ruin are wishful thinking on his part. He is basically a communist and the definition of a communist is somebody who has nothing and wants everyone else to have the same. Carry on Richard we will still be here long after you and your ilk are long gone.
What is amusing about that is that a social democrat is described by you as a communist
It shows how out of touch you – and the Tories you now speak to – are with reality and mainstream opinion and, indeed, fact
But it is the Tories who are ruining Britain by forcing us into recession
And Guernsey remains without a legal tax policy (EU approval required, of course, and not yet given) and without a mechanism to balance its books
I’d worry about your domestic issues if I was you Dave – because I’ve always been proved right on the Crown Dependencies so far
Smile away if you wish – but remember the peson who fell from the 100 storey building reckoned after fallin 99 floors “it’s going OK so far”. That’s you
Ed : This comment deleted for being gratuitously offensive whilst adding nothing to debate.
The author claims to be a senior Guernsey politician.
I hope that is not true
David
if what you say is true, why not just become independent ?
We don’t want you, your banking/financial activities do us untold harm.
You say you don’t want or need us.
The old justification, that you need UK defence forces (for which, of course, you’ll pay no tax) is no longer remotely serious. Are you really worried that if our brave lads wouldn’t rush back from Afghanistan you’d instantly be invaded by Ireland or Norway ?
There’s good reason for them to stay out
Like the banks they know there is no one else to bail them out
@Dave Jones – a member of the Guernsey government
You note that you and your government colleagues “dismiss Mr Murphy and his bunch as a bit of a joke.”
In reality it is your non existent government that “is a bit of a joke” — a joke that relies on not asking questions and not telling (or the boat leaves in the morning) to bludgeon the local population into submissive silence. And a joke that provides Guernsey’s unregulated finance industry the unfettered opportunity to engage in many and various tax dodging shenanigans in the certain knowledge that no one (but the very brave) will ever snitch on it.
Until Richard Murphy and others spoilt the joke by asking questions.
Times are changing…
You said that the revised zero ten wouldn’t fly. It did. There’s one example of you being proved wrong about the Crown Dependencies. If I could be bothered, I could find others.
Looks like they have the ear of the current government too…
Hang on…..zero ten now is fundamentally different from the one I said would not fly….precisely because I said it
And I might remind you about VAT…..
I think what Richard said was; you couldn’t make zero:10 work unless you applied it so strictly as to make your economy completely unsupportable.
Saying that you’ve gone ahead & made your economy completely unsupportable is scarcely a proof that Richard got anything wrong !
The Isle of Man’s deficit post VAT negotiation is not dissimilar, as a proportion of its economy, to the UK’s deficit. If the Isle of Man’s economy is completely unsupportable, then guess what – so is the UK’s. And the Isle of Man hasn’t got any debt, so can cushion the blow. People in glass houses…
Everyone knew about the VAT renegotiation: nobody sensible here believes Richard had a thing to do with it (although it suits politicians to pretend there is some bogeyman out there), or that Richard had any particular inside information on it.
Frequently wrong, I’m afraid: I can’t remember the three points that you said even a post-ARI zero ten regime would fail on, but it didn’t. It has passed
Ah, that’s why the IoM politicians so vehemently denied my facts. And said I was wrong on every count
And then I was right
And don’t rely on borrowing by the way – you’re not allowed to borrow – by the UK!
And here’s Mark Steel on HMRC, Vodafone etc. from his column in The Independent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-id-like-to-be-taken-for-lunch-by-the-taxman-6279777.html
We know that comedians are allowed a greater freedom of expression than public servants have a right to. Compare Jeremy Clarkson with Osita Mba. Mba has to measure his every utterance against various codes, guidelines and Acts of Parliament. Clarkson just has to filch a set-up line.
Why doesn’t more of the workforce try breaking into comedy? There are plenty of guides on how to do it. Russell Howard, a stand-up in his mid-20s, earns £4million p.a. A teacher in his mid-20s earns about 1/160th of that. They’re pretty similar jobs.
ED
I have re- read my post and it is not “gratuitously offensive” it points out that we have got it right and the UK have got it badly wrong. I would ask you to reconsider this blatant censorship. As for my position in the Guernsey Government I am at present Guernsey’s Housing Minister.