Not time for Tobin -Times Online .
I'm sure the Times did not want their rather pathetic attack ion the Tobin Tax to admit what it actually did - that tax havens / secrecy jurisdiction undermine democracy and the rule of law in the world's major states for the sole benefit of bankers and the wealthy, but they did.
They said:
The main objection to a Tobin tax, however, is that it will not work. ... Perhaps all the main financial centres would sign up to the tax. But that still leaves the offshore financial centres. It is difficult to see what possible incentive they would have to implement a tax when it would plainly be in their financial interest to attract business from international banks.
This is the perverted logic of neo-liberalism, that we let the 20 or so institutions (and that is about the real sum total of banks involved in this equation) split themselves across jurisdictions and so undermine the law.
Well, we have to stop that.
And I assure you that is possible. The answer would be simple: any bank doing this would have to lose its banking licence in London ans elsewhere. Of course they should be at liberty to trade in tax havens / secrecy jurisdictions, but not here as well, and not if they are not tax compliant.
Tax compliance is seeking to pay the right amount of tax (but no more) in the right place at the right time where right means that the economic substance of the transactions undertaken coincides with the place and form in which they are reported for taxation purposes.
This is what the new bank code on taxation demands.
It is what we expect. It's time the world woke up and realised it is what must be delivered.
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“that we let the 20 or so institutions (and that is about the real sum total of banks involved in this equation) ”
Way off. Figure that the London market contains at least 3 or 4 major banks from every country in the G20 (many more in the case of some countries such as Germany, Japan and the USA) and you pretty quickly get to over 100 major banks doing serious business in the City (the actual number of foreign banks is even higher).
Of course tax havens aren’t undermining democracy. The fact is that you are proposing that a UK tax is placed on a mobile activity that can be undertaken anywhere. Nobody is obliged to conduct their business in a particular country just bvecause a law is passed to tax the activity in that country.
If we go with your figure of 20 banks, then at least 15 of them would be foreign incorporated banks. How are they undermining democracy if they choose to transact their business other than in the UK?
Most commentators agree on about 20
If you look at the top 50 you see why
http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/10/7/saupload_biggest_banks.jpg
On democracy – of course you don’t agree
You claim to be a banker
I wouldn’t expect you to admit you undermine democracy
That doesn’t mean you don’t
And I’m not saying they’re just undermining UK democracy – I am saying so per se – they are seeking to destroy the reality of democracy in pursuit of control on behalf of a few
I think that’s very, very hard for anyone to deny – if they are objective
First of all it was tax havens undermining democracy, now it is banks undermining democracy, and I don’t see your logic. You propose a tax on banks who undertake a certain transaction in the UK and when they choose not to undertake those transaction in the UK you say that is undermining democracy. That is truly bizarre logic.
On your list of banks, there is hardly a bank in that top 50 that does not have a significant presence in London, and there are many more who are not on the list, such as banks from the Nordic countries and Austria, several Italian banks, Middle Eastern banks, Westpac from Australia, South African banks, all of which are very active in London. Add in a few South American and Asian banks and you are pretty soon looking at a big number.
Stopping at the top 20 means ignoring any bank with less than $1,300 billion in assets, which is probably more than 50% of the London market
Given that the UK has not had a referendum on Lisbon despite being promised one, that Ireland and France both voted against the Lisbon treaty and yet it was still passed, and that on standard projections Labour would have more MPs than any other party if they got 32.5 percent of the national vote, one might well argue that it is the political elite that is undermining democracy.
I think it is clear to anyone outside of that elite that there is a huge disconnect between what the public want and expect and what matters to the political elite. Whenever anyone exhibits any viewpoint outside of the narrow orthodoxy they are decried as an extremist: for example, Jon Cruddas and Norman Tebbit are both marginalised by their parties as crackpots. So there are whole areas of debate on incredibly important topics that are just closed down as we are dictated to by a small coterie of expense abusing jet setters telling everyone about the huge efforts they are making to eradicate poverty and reduce climate change.
Can I suggest that is what is undermining democracy? Chirac is up for corruption in France, most people believe Tony Blair lied about taking us into Iraq, in 2005 Labour said Tony Blair would do a full third term, Cameron is clearly just an old school toff and whenever someone – Frank Field, for example – threatens to not tow the party line they get kicked into touch.
Well, excuse me is lots of people think paying a load of showboaters to look after their own self-interests isn’t “the spirit of democracy”.
Alex
You are out of your depth
As are my detractors on the Guernset fora
Even though I am a more social observer than technical accountant
It really is beginning to unravel in the Channel Islands.
Previously allied politicians are fighting amongst themselves to try and maintain a ludicrously overstated standard of living caused by the inequalities. Fighting over resources raped from the public by the ferocity of greedy finaciers milking profit from archaic and forgotten about legislative anomalies.
Jersy is in much more of a mess than Guernsey. Guernsey’s infrastructure, whilst more prudent than Jersey’s, will descend beyond levels acceptable to the upper middle classes that it has needed to attract to maintain a ‘civilised’ situation. Rapid growth through de facto theft and fraud will fail the island people who were ignorant to what happened because they had the faith in those people that ran their horticultural business – at least it produced – but who had grown fat on the notion of growth at all costs.
There really is no sense in defending any of the nonsense of the secrecy anymore. If Guernsey and Jersey are so good at what they do, then we should realign reality and truly believe that the efficient movement of capital, to service the market cleanly, as per the doctrine is promoted by the Chief Ministers, instead of lying to their publics that defending the status quo is socially useful.
All of those banks, or their subs are in the CIs and are used to thieve money from the countries where the wealth is derived.
@mad foetus
So democracy is dead
What are you proposing in its place?
Richard
Richard,
Democracy could be revived but political parties need to be weakened. All of the criticism you have levied against banks (jobs for the boys, suits regulating suits etc) could equally be applied to politicians.
The first step should be allowing constituancies to choose their representatives, instead of having them imposed by parties. And perhaps limiting most politicians to serving 2 terms would be a good idea as well.
But my point is, for as long as people believe that politicians are in it for themselves, everyone will regard the system as being there to be milked – from the builder who gets paid cash in hand and flogs duty free ciggies down the pub to the millionaire who structures his affairs to pay the least amount of tax.
It is not secrecy jurisdiction that is undermining democracy, is it an all pervasive belief that everybody is looking after themselves first and that if you are honest you will get ripped off.