If I have ever felt like giving up blogging then then last few days have given me cause to consider doing so.
I have deleted some comments from people of whom I thought better, and extended the blocked list to include some names that will be familiar to regular readers of the comments section, one of them for comments so offensive I was really quite shocked.
I have found the attitude of some in favour of Leave as frustrating as they have maybe found my own position.
I have had comments thrown at me on Twitter that I would rather not have read.
And politics has been more toxic after the death of Jo Cox that I can ever recall. The Farage explanation on this appals me.
I will be quite clear: I am not enjoying this. And I can only see it carrying on. There is going to be the outpouring of the most extraordinary anger, grief, fear and frustration whoever wins on Thursday.
At one time I thought it was only the Conservatives who would be torn apart by the referendum. How wrong I was: it seems like the wound in the country will take a very long time to heal. Politics has been changed by this wholly unnecessary event.
So I give notice in advance: if the blog comment section is abused by anyone (whoever) in the aftermath of the result I will have no hesitation in deleting comments and, if I think it appropriate, blocking those making them. Abuse will be widely interpreted.
And if I find the process of managing the comments on Friday or thereafter too difficult in terms of time lost, people too upset, or anything else then comments will simply be turned off. I would regret that, but if that's the only way to survive the experience, so be it.
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I’ve been shocked at the level of ignorance I’ve seen – more on the Brexit side I have to say. When somebody wants to exit because you now have to provide a CV to apply for a job sounds like all the countries ills are being blamed on the EU.
These people are in for a shock when these ills don’t go away and we’re going it alone.
I agree
My best was the famed who assured me he’d have to do no form filling if we left the EU and could then got whatever he wanted, how he anted, paying whatever wages he wanted
It turned out calm argument was going to have no impact on him. He knew he was right as all law came from the EU and would go away if we leave
First of all, please take care of yourself and be careful of burn-out. Political campaigns can destroy the strongest constitutions, and the after-effects can be devastating, especially when we lose.
I am sure you are right, that even if we win, no matter how large of small the margin, our politics will never be the same. The only silver lining if we lose, is that we will at least see the anti-EU cabal in their true colours, and we will live to see their promises and lies wither in the light of reality, as we struggle to cope with the mayhem of exit.
And there’s the rub. If we vote to stay in, we will be hearing the same anti EU propaganda for years, magnified one hundred times. “If we had voted to leave, then this would never have happened….” It will take years to diffuse the lies and misrepresentations that have taken hold. And the anger that has been stoked will not die soon.
Second, Richard, please keep up the great work you are doing. Take a break if you need, deal with the abusive commenters as you must, but please come back. This blog is a safe space for many of us who visit it daily. I believe you are making a difference.
I am not burned out
And the anger that dives me – to make life better for most people – drives me, hard
I think it Jo Cox’s death and what I call the Farage explanation that has got me, I know what it’s like to have death threats. I know the toxicity that creates them. None come out of nowhere. And I find the repiruon if that excuse deeply offensive, hurtful and threatening
I have predicted a ‘throwing the toys out of the pram’ phase of post-refendum politics: “brace yourself” is good advice and your preparations are entirely sensible.
And no, it hasn’t started early: this is business as usual on planet Daily Mail Comment Section. It is regrettable that your space, and others, are being contaminated by this: but it is entirely predictable if you think of the referendum as “What if the whole thing is all about the people who leave *those* comments?”
Predictable, but not inevitable: and, with a little work, manageable. My sympathies go out to those who have the task of scrubbing offensive graffiti off their walls: at least the world of electronic discourse has a delete button.
Thanks
Neatly put
It has reminded me far too strongly of the Northern Ireland where I grew up 60 years ago and that I thought I had left behind. What is this sovereignty that Brexiters prize so highly? Surely a country can only survive in peace and prosperity through compromise and agreement with its European family? I wonder what a Brexiter’s home life is like if it is conducted on the same principle of personal sovereignty?
A childhood hero of mine, the Reverend Albert McElroy once said that people would vote for a polar bear, if it was waving a Union Jack. Sadly, I fear he may have been right.
The flipside of the bigotry in Ulster – and yes, I’ve had the pleasure of being called ‘Wunnathem’ – is that someone profited from the incitement, the intimidation, the exclusion and the discrimination.
Find out who funded the Lodges, and posted bail for the Apprentice Boys, and paid for the print runs of those pamphlets and those tracts, and you might be looking at men identical to the financial backers of UKIP and Leave; and – say it quietly – of EDL and their ilk on the far, far Right.
It is not going to get any better I would have thought as there is a lack of respect and tolerance of other peoples views coupled with whatever side wins the Referendum crowing about it to people on the losing side.
I must admit I do have difficulty with people’s views when they bear little resemblance to reality or they are based on information obtained from a completely biased source.
Yesterdays gem was on Radio 5 Live
I am voting Leave because the only reason Cameron wants us to stay in the EU is that he can get on the Gravy Train in Brussels after he is PM and earn lots of money
I’m hopeful that Farage’s odious (vile, disgusting) comments regarding Jo Cox’s killer will backfire spectacularly. His loathsome poster seems not to have done so well. Feelings are indeed running high. I find it difficult to see how anyone on the left can side with such people
I will be deeply saddened if the comments are turned off, but we need you! Many of us moan about things but actually implementing change is very difficult. Please keep well. I have enjoyed reading the comments and marvel that you can take the time to read them all and often reply. I hope the vast majority of people who read your blog are very supportive – It is easy for me as we seem to have very similar mindsets.
I would urge readers of the blog on the “Left” to remember that we have far more in common than what divides us (Jo Cox put it better) and to support Richard. Wirds can hurt as well as heal
I have been accused of being too sensitive
And maybe I am
But one of my community was killed
And I have had death threats in my time
Sure they said they were ‘just a joke’
They don’t feel like it
You care deeply, you think very deeply about what you write. You are a tireless and very effective campaigner particularly for tax justice. There are many who dislike what you do so I’m not surprised you have had death threats. I suspect you are a natural introvert who does not welcome the lime-light but are driven to do the best you can. It is a truly ugly time. I didn’t know Jo Cox but she seems to have been a truly wonderful human being; one of the greatest and best of us. I’m badly shocked and it must be much worse for you. Sympathy is a word that is not strong enough; empathy and solidarity come closer. Take “Courage” Richard you need to keep believing in truth, honesty, justice, goodness and fight the fight.
Thank you
You are right in the introversion: I never asked for or sought attention for my work except to achieve a goal of change. I have learned to use it, and to even be good at it. But despite common opinion that does not make you an extrovert. I readily creep back to my quiet space as soon as I can.
I did not really know Jo Cox. I only met her. But she was a indeed spirit. And yes, it does hurt
I think that the thing that got to me was that for some time now I was expecting some sort of violence to occur from the Left – not really from the result of the EU vote but from the really unpleasant policies that we have endured since 2010.
It now seems that the violence perpetrated on the MP was motivated from the Right.
I also feel that the Right has been motivated by the vote. The Referendum has polarised the country in the truest sense.
I don’t like what I see and I feel like an alien here and that I don’t fit in. I don’t want to here in the UK anymore. My son was watching some of the football with friends and was telling us about what his friends’ and their parents were saying about other teams – it’s as though we Brits only find our true selves when we are at war or in conflict with someone – ANYONE – and our Establishment are so good at exploiting this.
At work The Sun and the Daily Mail abound. I read them if only to find out what is being said. People like Tom Utley, Quentin Letts, Richard Littlejohn – their style of writing just seems designed to wind people up.
I remember reading the Daily Mail as a 14 year old one morning at school – I bought a newspaper to look and feel grown up. I cannot remember what it was about but I remember that the subject matter was in relation to a part of society and that after reading it, I was very angry towards a certain section of the public.
But then I realised that my anger was actually misplaced and I felt that I had just been wound up. I felt ashamed and I never bought the Mail again. That’s right – it was about the unemployed and my father had been made redundant at no fault of his own a number of year’s back (his company was bought by foreigners and asset stripped) and this article was basically saying that all unemployed people were lazy and deserved their predicament. Which of course was not true – my Dad looked for a job for ages and did all sorts of small jobs – even buying a ladder and cleaning the windows of the new housing estate we lived on to keep paying the mortgage.
When I did my MBA, the subject matter was Knowledge Management which got me thinking about where and how people acquire ‘knowledge’.
It seems to me that too many of us are driven by what we read in the newspapers these days. This really needs dealing with. Some form of external regulation of the press in order to protect the public peace needs to be brought into being.
Reportedly, Utley is paid £120,000 a year to wind people up in my view. Actually – to be more legalistic – he and others are paid to INCITE people towards hatred of others and pass it off as valid comment.
It really has to stop.
Agreed
‘I was expecting some sort of violence to occur from the Left — not really from the result of the EU vote but from the really unpleasant policies that we have endured since 2010.’
I think the reason there hasn’t been any energetic resistance from the Left is because there isn’t a Left! The Left became neo-liberal many years ago. SO it could only go to the Right.
But I don’t entirely agree that this terrible violence and debased, divisive language is purely a product of the EU debate, although this might be a significant trigger. The language of violence, divisiveness, discord and dehumanisation has been ramped up exponentially by the Tories over the last few years. And we have had violence form this only self directed:
1) The suicides of those left in dire circumstances and vilified by the Tories and the press for not being ‘strivers’.
2) The bedroom Tax that caused a man to reach the limits of his ability to cope so he burned down his own flat. (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-victim-thulani-dlodlo-3249687) and:
http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/news/local-news/man-bedroom-tax-protest-siege-7944088
(worth looking at the photograph of this utterly burnt out human being!)
3) The young man at his wit’s end with the Job Centre who drove his car into it. (see: http://www.staffordshirenewsletter.co.uk/stafford-man-charged-car-crashes-greyfriars-job-centre-building/story-20158014-detail/story.html)
And we have had the attacks on the disabled (attacks on the disable ffs!) which increased dramatically as soon as the Tories’ divisive language-grooming of the public came into operation.
Why wasn’t this more vigorously challenged THEN -what moral vacuum allowed this to happen?
I can remember taking part in a bedroom Tax rally in Birmingham where only about 500 people tuned up -why was there this level of narcoleptic indifference?
If these things had been challenged then this disgusting referendum could not have been the way it is.
I know the answer: The manufacturing of consent by a Government that could easily do so because there was NO counter-narrative.
PLEASE! – let’s see this referendum ‘excrescence’ as a malevolent growth on what has already been created.
As for the Daily Mail-it was fascist, is fascist and will always be fascist, the fact that it is bought in such huge numbers should shock and terrify us.
I suspect that this ghastly referendum is lifting the lid off what has been underneath for some time, especially since 2008.
neo-liberalism has siphoned wealth for so long and there has been NO coherent explanations offered by politicians which has left an opening for the simplifiers to come in and channel every thing to the level of the sewer. The Tories have been doing this for some years now and the referendum seems to have become a spittoon for mass dissatisfaction and in one case, horrific violence.
At some level, there is a lot of unhappiness at work, the sense of no future, the information overload that encourages black and white thinking as a psychological defense against inundation. But above all, the gross and sickening failure of politicians to create a discourse of respect. Corbyn’s election changed this but his party as a whole is still in the grip of zombie economic thinking but at least we have a hint of what decency could be like.
Unfortunately, whatever the result, this anger will remain because we are not looking at the root of the problem. Politicians have failed to do their job well and have so little psychological insight that they do not realise how dangerous the situation is and how out of control it can get if they don’t read the writing on the wall.
Excellent post Simon.
As one in the exit camp – my principal reason for wanting out is not articulated by any party, campaign or newspaper.
Zombie economic thinking indeed. I don’t see that the Labour Party is in any way ready organisationaly or intellectually to govern the country – and I say that as a Labour Party member.
Whilst we are trapped in the neo-liberal mindset that ALL government spending can only be financed by taxation and borrowing, and the money supply must be generated EXCLUSIVELY by the commercial decisions of private banks there is no hope.
So, monetary sovereignty is my reason for wanting out – never a peep about it.
But we have absolute monetary sovereignty now for all practical purposes
That is just crazy
‘But we have absolute monetary sovereignty now’
Agreed but we can only implement it by smoke and mirrors accounting which hides the fact that we have sovereign money-so no real transparency.
We need that transparency to promote democracy.
But I agree that voting Leave won’t get us there anyway because it isn’t on offer-that’s why I’m abstaining.
Good morning Richard. Sad to hear of what you’ve been subjected to. One would’ve expected better from posters on such a worthy site. But, in truth, I’m not surprised. Along with my small group of colleagues & friends, I have detected an underlying anger in England for quite a while. Not among those who maybe have a valid reason (maybe due to economic deprivation or ill-health) but from the mainly white bourgeoisie. It hasn’t been a happy place for a long time. A lot of negative vibes. The referendum has acted as a lightening rod for the expression of these frustrations. As mentioned above, the conflict won’t end on Friday and could possibly get worse if there is a vote to Remain. We shall see.
On a personal note, I pray that you will not be so discouraged as to give up the blog in its current form. You are a beacon of light in an ever darkening world. I’m not Quaker but have huge respect for Quaker values, which come to the fore in times of conflict. Without wanting to appear patronising (I’m older than you – haha) but maybe take a short break and recharge your batteries. We all have to do that from time to time. You have a punishing schedule – writing the book, talking to the Bundestag, teaching, family commitments and not least having to deal with all of us here! And we don’twantto lose you. Tax Research UK is a catalyst for so much reasoned and reasonable political dialogue – the exact opposite of what the country is currently experiencing. Thanks again for your wisdom and positive energy.
Giving up writing is the ultimate punishment for me
I can do it for maybe three hours at a time
A break is very unlikely
I’ll second that and agree that many of the ‘bourgeoisie’ are responsible for the demise of politics and the rise of intolerance. The ‘liberal classes’ have succumbed to ‘I’m-alright-Jackism’ and when that happens we’re in trouble. Cf.-Chris hedges’ ‘The Death of the Liberal Class.’
Richard you say “I will have no hesitation in deleting comments”
I don’t know if I am exception, but when I post a comment it is marked “awaiting approval”
Surely if this applies to all comments, you don’t have to delete comments but merely not approve/publish them?
Or am I missing something?
I can leave them in limbo
But it makes the CRM unmanageable quite quickly
And anyway, I am a decision maker
PS: As usual I hit the ‘ubmit’button prematurely. I don’t mean to cast aspertion on the entire white middle-class! Just certain elements within it. It’s a different type of anger to that which I experienced for many years living in a northern industrial community – where people have legitimate grievances and are not afraid to speak about them bluntly as only Northerners do! What I tried to articulate is a different type of anger which is more insidious hence more dangerous. Must dash – hope that makes some sense.
Oh dear … ‘submit button’.
Richard, I’m sure that a large number of those unpleasant comments are designed to try and shut you up. I have read your blog for about 5 years and you have inspired me, a 50 year old without any formal qualifications, to become more involved in politics, to try and understand how the economy works and to challenge the status quo in my own small way. You will always have my gratitude and my best wishes.
Thank you
Appreciated
I’d like to second that as well! This is a site were ideas can be explored and tested which is vital. Sometimes I’ve posted things and Richard has pointed out where I have been confused/or plain wrong, that is vital in the process of learning. More than that, Richard welcomes people who are willing to learn and don’t just assert …and more than that, Richard shares, to a healthy degree, his own ups and downs and inner struggles so this site is a lot more than an exchange of information. More than that…we can all share a joke and have a laugh at ourselves at times despite covering grave and disturbing subjects.
The present period is a dark one and not one for jokes but here we are talking about it together -so the site has a collegiate feel which is healing in itself.
I hope this ‘dark period’ in your blogging life and your feeling of personal assault in the last week lifts and lightens, Richard.
Simon
Thanks Simon
I hope it does
The BBC is bnot lifting my mood right now
I gave up my license two years ago -the BBC belongs to zombie land – I couldn’t watch it without getting angry and depressed so decide to protect my mental health by getting rid of it and not contributing to its coffers anymore.
I comment only occasionally but read your blog daily. You do a fine and important job -I’m thinking of your work for fairer taxation especially – may you have the strength and the courage to long continue.
Death threats must be very unnerving: I hope you keep a log with as much detail (eg IP addresses) as possible and report to the police as often as you think appropriate.
Keep it up.
Thanks
Let us try and lift the debate a bit with four good and valid reasons to vote Leave, (By Werner. Keen, Elliott and Ambrose-Pritchard) and why it is a good idea to vote for Remain, nevertheless. (and not just because Soros says so)
My summary and all links here:
https://radicaleconomicthought.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/soros-on-my-side-but-economists-i-respect-say-leave/
Thanks for providing these links, Matt. I find I can always rely on Richard Werner to give a clear and concise analysis regarding banking and economics.
I know you have made your decision, Richard, but I know you also respect Richard Werner’s work and this is well worth reading:
https://professorwerner.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/eu-basics-your-guide-to-the-uk-referendum-on-eu-membership/
There is a great deal Richard and I do not agree on, including a great deal about money where he is by no means reliable
He is definitely not on the EU
The problem is, these people are supporting leave on the basis of academic economic assessments (which I largely agree with) – however do they really see the political implications and the rock and a hard place the public is in?
Thanks for posting that John. I have now reverted to my original opinion of Richard Werner whom I have heard speak on a couple of occasions a few years back, not to my taste. More recently I was impressed by a video of him speaking – and read some – of his ‘Princes of the Yen’ work. I thought that I might find your link relevant to my hasty decision to vote Lexit. Nothing about the human factor, just capital…
In terms of the atmosphere in the UK, a friend with belgian plates was driving in the UK last weekend – car & van drivers were gesticulating to him in a hostile fashion (i.e. giving him the finger). Is this what it has come to? I left the Uk more than 30 years ago – it is starting to look like I will never return (apart from family visits) – why would I (or indeed others) want to live in such a place, where ignorance & bigots seem to call the shots? Belgian people I know are absolutely aghast – & I have no explanation for them.
There have been times in the past when some major political event has caused major divisions and a souring of debate that was severe to the point of being poisonous. The General Strike of ’26 is one and in my own experience, I was in the middle of it, was the Suez Crisis. You will be able to suggest a few others. The Referendum always had that serious risk and quite why Cameron conceded the idea is difficult to understand. But he is a short term operator with limited understanding. There could be worse to come.
I think this may rank up there
We did not appreciate how serious 2008 was at first but the shock waves are still rolling and hav not reached ripple stage yet
This could easily be another seismic shock
I’ve just read about a Conservative councillor in Yorkshire who wrote on Facebook that he was “donating the steam off my piss ” to the Jo Cox fund, and that he was sick and tired of this woman’s death being used against brexit. I can’t describe how sickened and upset I am at such outrageous insensitivity and intolerance.
Richard, as I said in my last comment in this place, keep on investing in the truth.
I have only been reading your blog for a few months but have been totally blown away by your courage, your commitment and your awareness of what is right, and wrong. Happy Summer Solstice!
Solstice
The dog may ft a long walk tonight
Do say a little more about your dog? (Jean and I are slightly into dogs here in Oregon.)
Hector
An almost white with just a touch of tan cocker spaniel
Likes Rich Tea
And very dopey
Richard
Hector, as in Hector’s House , or the Trojan warrior? Enjoy your solstice walk-I’ve still got my curtains undrawn and enjoying the glow at 21.52 here in Gloucestershire-‘civic twilight’ ends 22.19.
He did not go as far as planned tonight
We’ll go for a good river walk tomorrow
And the answer: both!
Having just waded through the comments section of another left-wing blogger on articles regarding the referendum, it’s not difficult to imagine the vile and/or vicious posts you are referring to – Tom doesn’t delete comments on principle, so many of the bile-filled rants remain for all to see, and the lack of reasoning displayed by such posters (predominantly right-wing) is incredible! I once considered starting a blog myself, since I have an amateur’s enthusiasm for both politics and economics, but I’m not sure if I could stomach it after seeing the attacks against yourself, Tom and even commenters trying to reason with these ideologues!
I also once considered entering politics personally, and even sought to be co-opted onto my local town council, but since I live in a Conservative stronghold, I don’t believe I really stood a chance. I haven’t given up on going into politics, but not sure if it would actually be possible for someone of my leaning, given the right-wing tendency of the most of England!
On the plus side, I have recently purchased your book “The Joy of Tax” on kindle, and look forward to reading it! Next on my list would be “The Courageous State”, so as many have said here, if you were to stop blogging it would be a tremendous loss to the progressive community!
Thanks Daniel
I have a very thick skin
When stuff gets under my skin the proverbial has to be flying
And right now it is
Coming late to this blog and discussion, Richard. I can’t add much more than has been said except I’m saddened to hear things has taken such a turn, but even sadder that I’m somehow not surprised. As with Trump in the US, the referendum, and particularly the antics of the Brexit brigade, have provided the excuse for many, many people to unleash the bigotry and ‘little Englander’ hatred that has simmered below the surface of our nation for decades. As with sexism, legislation put a stopper in the racism bottle – people learnt to know what they should say and when – but the necessary cultural change has never taken hold as much as many people believed or would wish, and Farage and his ilk long ago began to signal that the stopper should come out, and out it has come.
I agree Ivan
Richard,
You are doing an important job and have plenty of support from people you don’t know. Full steam ahead. I try to contextualise rage by imagining what it might have been like in Germany in the 1920s. It comes down to stay and fight, if one can, or voting with one’s feet. I don’t think (I certainly hope) the UK is not at that point yet. If it avoids it it will be at least in part as result of your efforts.
It’s an interesting analogy
And by no means inappropriate
I admit to being glad I have a second passport
As someone from a Jewish background, since very young I often tried to imagine what it would have been like living in those terrible times.
Only in the last few years ( though it has been developing for longer) have I felt that fascism is in the air. The Tories ghastly manipulation of language and the feeding of divisiveness and hatred and marginalisation and now the utterly despicable EU ‘debate.’
I know now that it CAN all happen again and , despairingly, the sense of the sleepwalking into it is there. There is time to avoid it but those in power are not reading the signs.
Exactly! Living in England during the Troubles, I sensed that people thought that Northern Ireland was on another planet. I felt like screaming out that we are only one false step away from the same things happening here. Now, in my old age, I see it happening.
So do I
I’m afraid I’m cynical enough to believe that even if people vote for a Brexit, it would not be allowed so I’ve been wondering why the vote is taking place at all. It finally dawned on me last week that the whole point of the referendum ‘debate’ is to fuel divisiveness and hatred. This is the politics of divide and rule. It is also the politics of distraction – no-one’s been discussing tax havens, TTIP, cuts/austerity, use of UK arms in Yemen… We are being encouraged to fight amongst ourselves rather than fight for structural change.
We need a positive vision not constant fear. Please keep blogging.
Richard, as a recent avid reader of your blog I would like to add my support and thanks. I have been trying to understand economics properly since I retired a few years ago. Fortunately I found your blog but must confess I can’t remember how . Anyway, as others have said please keep up the good work and “illegitemi non carborundum “.
Thanks
Richard,
As an ex HMRC Officer your blog has usually been very accurate about mismanagement of the Department and I hope you are not going to give up comments about our tax administration, perhaps if you focussed more on tax and less on wider issues, you would hopefully attract less unwelcome hostility.
But tax only has meaning in a wider context for me
By itself it makes no sense, as I explained in the Joy of Tax
Richard-that’s exactly what I learned from your book!
Richard – can I echo others thoughts. Your blog is a haven of intelligent, considered debate that I head off to daily. I am continuously amazed at and hugely grateful for the effort you must put into it, but am under no illusions about how much effort must go into filtering out the rubbish and unpleasantness and how threatening and hurtful that must so often be. Both you and the blog need protecting – if there is anyway we can help, without intruding on what is absolutely your space, please let us know
I also met Jo Cox (Leadbetter) in her Oxfam days and her murder has been a turning point for me, as it has shown exactly where this type of discourse not might but will lead to. I gather that she was very much a person who preferred action to extended debate. Whatever the result of the referendum, working out what actions can be taken to ameliorate and then undo the damage caused need to be at the top of the list. Building on existing networks but also bringing in new people and building new networks. Perhaps making a big effort to engage that younger generation who predominantly want to remain, and may now be shocked into becoming more politically active by the objectives of the leave campaign and the way it has been conducted. This blog might even be the germ of such a network…
I would be delighted with that
It is a reason why I enjoy teaching
John Palmer/ Richard
I think Richard Werner is likely, ultimately, to be correct on money.
But he goes off the rails by suggesting there is some subterfuge in the desire of the United States to encourage a United States of Europe by never understanding that the US, having been dragged in to major world conflicts, which started in Europe on two occasions within 30 years, was – not unreasonably – trying to prevent a third.
Importantly too, he has not included in his outlook the regulation and legal consequences of undoing EU membership in Professor Michael Dougan’s shattering analysis:
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/06/21/dishonesty-on-an-industrial-scale-prof-michael-dougan-on-brexit/
and I think that is the clincher. 40 years spent on being part of the EU will definitely not be undone in 2 years and probably not 20.
We have made our bed a long time ago now. We need to lay in it (I almost said ‘lie’ in it – we’ve certainly done that) and resolve to make the bed more comfortable – and not simply choose to decant ourselves onto the floor.
MayP – interesting points made. I agree with you that Richard Werner has a full understanding in respect of money but I feel that he may be implying a deeper understanding regarding past US issues which you, perhaps, have not inferred.
It is, of course, easier to maintain the current system and I feel that “The Establishment” has now done enough manoeuvering to ensure that a Remain vote will be achieved. For many this will be the easiest answer, but it still does not challenge the real issues and the overall powers which lie behind the creation of the EEC and EU.
Please don’t stop writing! I’ve had to cull some of my Facebook ‘friends’ because I couldn’t stand the stuff they’ve been sharing with me over the last few weeks – and I didn’t have any death threats.
I find the way people are using the referendum as a way of rejecting fat cats, the ‘elite’ and ‘experts’ quite frightening. They’re being manipulated by some rich and powerful people to reject liberalism (with a small ‘l’) and don’t seem to see that those manipulating them are just as bad or worse.
If you challenge myths, you get accused of talking down to people. Certain ways of thinking are just so ingrained and encouraged by the media. If you challenge statistics with figures from the ONS or official sites, there are people who will say that’s just your opinion and is as valid as theirs.
I’m not sure if anybody counted the number of times Leave politicians said ‘take back control’ in the Big Debate yesterday, but it’s become like brainwashing.
I won’t invoke Godwin’s Law here, because I’m sure others can see the similarities with the 1930s.
It is far too horribly like the 1930s
I couldn’t agree more. Although the whole thing was unnecessary it should be fun to engage in debate and try your best to defend your position and argue for your case. I’ve lost count of the people that tell me, as you say, “that’s just your opinion” but never engage in dialogue. Just the “take our country back” and similar soundbites. What I have notices as well is that this is far nastier than the mostly good natured and good humoured debate we had here in Scotland during our referendum. And, when that was over we all got on as normal. I fear there could be some lingering nastiness after this. Whatever the result.
I agree with all that
Including on Scotland
I may not be alone in applying for asylum
Yes. I was at the debate last night, and whilst the audience (mixed together, I was mostly surrounded by convinced outers) behaved towards each other perfectly well, the debate itself was about as low in it’s quality as this referendum has been.
Part of this is down to the ridiculous insistence on ‘balance’ in debates. That’s pointless when one side is telling bare faced lies much of the time, about sovereignty, migration, the effect of leaving the EU, etc. I’m glad to see Leave were called out a number of times about this, but they still got away with far too much, particularly Andrea Leadsom.
You’re right, it is like Germany in the 1930’s. Hitler posing as the saviour of Germany, and then leading it into destruction; Johnson, Gove, IDS, Grayling, Leadsom etc etc posing as the friends of the working class. Just appalling. Even though I’m a convinced atheist, let me offer a prayer to the Almighty that these wretched shysters fail to win this referendum.
Richard,
A lot of love up there with your commenters.
Stepping back a bit, if we look at this phenomenologically then may I suggest an impulse that is circulating in the capitalist world both developed and developing. It is a kind of rage, which in the latter is brought about by the failure of basic public services and a dawning understanding of the venality of their politicians. South Africa is a great example.
In the West it is a fear of the utter inability of our politicians to grasp the heaviness of the burdens neo-liberalism is placing on the citizens and commons. The is reflects in the anger we experience, stoked by the casual callousness of the Mike Ashleys and Philip Greens as they serve Mammon and ignore Lazarus at their gate.
We are approaching political end times brought about by the UNCONSCIOUSLY INCOMPETENT political adolescents. Time now for deeply moral imagination.
The feeling that massive change is looming is very large
Spot on John. My fear is that the incompetence of politicians means they cannot see this.
I think one of the roots of the word ‘Government’ comes from the Greek ‘Kubernairtes’ which means the captain of a ship. Yet we have had Governments for years who subscribe to a policy that the ‘sea knows best’ and there is no need for steering. And look where we are: heading for the rocks -quelle surprise!
The danger of violence in South Africa is very great, another neo-liberal balls-up. But the possibility of Violence throughout Europe is very grave.
Can we name ONE political leader who has the nous to really talk about this?
Richard
I came to your blog by accident over a year ago and read it daily. It was the spark I needed to become better informed after, like many people, becoming so disillusioned with the current state of UK politics, economics and the press. It has led me to become so much better informed through further reading and investigation. I think most of your readers appreciate your honesty, pragmatism and commitment. Although it must be hard not to, don’t let the detractors get to you. We need committed, intelligent and thoughtful voices like you to represent the fight for justice, equality and common sense. Hang in there. We really do appreciate what you do.
I will hang in as long as I can
Richard
Don’t let the b*stards grind you down.
You’re doing great work. Keep it up.
Doesn’t stop the bastards trying
But I suspect I’ll be doing this until the day I drop
John Major’s use of the term ‘bastards’ was clearly prescient!
Indeed
On the toxicity of politics, referenda and the public:
I’m in the far North of Scotland and a quiet conversation with the lady whose b&b I stayed in made me think. She was reflecting sadly on the lasting divisions that the Scottish referendum had created, even in a remote quiet community such as her own, and as already discussed here, we can expect the same and more after tomorrow’s vote.
Which made me think; much as we dislike and criticise the antagonism that is often displayed in Parliament, it would seem to be demonstrably far, far worse when decisions and debates that should perhaps have been resolved in Parliament, are handed over to the public. Instead of the arguments and antagonism being contained within the arena that is the House of Commons, where there are at least some constraints and rules, the whole of society engages in what we have seen to be a far more destructive, and even murderous conflict.
So to be a touch contrarian, the public might be no better or even worse than the MPs it despises. Especially in a social media world where any nutter can grab their 10 minutes of fame. Is direct democracy such a good thing? Maybe MPs and Parliament have a role in providing a safe space for such arguments to take place, without the rancour and division that wider public debate seems to lead to. And MPs can, or at least ought to be better informed. Though Gove, Johnson et al do not provide good examples
I do not mean to ignore the malign role of the media and the dreadful behaviour of some ideological MPs driven only by their lust for power.
But it it makes me think that restoring trust in Parliament is more vital than ever. And that is going to require the public to be a bit more reflective and sections of the press who stir up both the public and MPs to change their behaviour. Piece of cake really…
Thanks
And enjoy your travels
Im no fan of the great ‘oligarch’ Edmund Burke but he made a great speech where he said it was the duty of the M.P to educate his constituents and work tirelessly in this role.
We have politicians who are NOT educators, who are in tow to vested interests and do NOT explain to the public the REAL forces at work that are causing so much harm. If you treat the public like mushrooms you will get misdirected anger. Indeed, I would say that the Tories main plan since 2010 was to do just that: give bogus explanations for peoples’ woes and find a suitable scapegoat that can be the publics’ spittoon.
here’s the relevant bit of the Burke Speech, it’s interesting:
“Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices, ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. You choose a member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament. If the local constituent should have an interest, or should form an hasty opinion, evidently opposite to the real good of the rest of the community, the member for that place ought to be as far, as any other, from any endeavour to give it effect. I beg pardon for saying so much on this subject. I have been unwillingly drawn into it; but I shall ever use a respectful frankness of communication with you. Your faithful friend, your devoted servant, I shall be to the end of my life: a flatterer you do not wish for.”
They don’t do English like that anymore!
Thanks Simon – very pertinent and starts to answer my last post. I’d better read that biography of Burke that is sitting in my reading pile
I wonder what Burke would have to say about the media – both the press that creates so much of the ignorance and anger, and social media that provides a public outlet for that anger. It takes brave and determined MPs to stand up to both, though there are some outstanding examples, Jo Cox being one. We need to give them all our support
‘that biography of Burke that is sitting in my reading pile’ is that the one by Jesse Norman (not to be confused with the soprano Jessye Norman!)?
He’s a ‘principled’ Tory which sounds like a contradiction in terms but I think he compares Thatcher to Burke in that book which is risible and symptomatic of the public school boy, unsavoury ‘matronocracy’ she fostered.
Although Burke did write: ‘the laws of commerce are the laws of God.’ Burke gets a savaging by Marx in Capital Vol. 1 (Marx was kind enough to acknowledge Burke’s linguistic skills, never the less).
It is indeed the Jesse (non-singing) Norman version. Better move it up the pile… And see if I can find the reference in Capital