If I was Scottish I would vote for independence. David Cameron's performance - bizarrely staged in an apparently empty stadium - would only confirm why. This is not a head issue. It's a heart one. All big decisions are. And when you've been neglected for longer than you can remember, and your values gave been dismissed by those whom you wish to leave for almost as long of course you would want to leave.
Some think that reports from the Bank of England, NIESR and others will persuade Scots that economically this makes no sense. That just shows how corrupted neoliberal thinking has become. That's firstly because confidence in macro-economy forecasting is rightly at an all time low and secondly because such concepts as the right to determine your own future are almost impossible to price. For most economists that makes the issue incomprehensible.
So why wouldn't I vote yes if given the chance? One thing only would hold me back, and that's Scottish politicians refusal to believe on independence. You can't be independent of London and be ruled by the Bank of England. And events have shown that you can't be on Europe's periphery and be in the Euro. If Scotland is to say yes it musy have the courage of its convictions.
Scottish independence will be problematic. So too was Ireland's a century ago. It could be argued it still is. But is there anyone from Donefal to Wexford who argues they want to rejoin the Union? I very much doubt it. It will be the same from the Borders to the Highlands within a generation if Scotland votes yes. The idea that there might ever have been an alternative will have been forgotten.
No, the problem is for England (not least when Wales and Northern Ireland make clear where they stand). When the last vestiges of dominion are stripped bare what then will be left? A soul sold to the devil of money grubbing, I suspect. And that is no basis for a nation state.
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I have been sitting on the fence re independence. my position could accurately be described as heart in favour head against. The recent statements about keeping the pound have pushed me slightly towards the no camp. I don’t think either side has put their case well but every time either of the unholy trinity of Cameron, Osborne or Boris appear on TV, i become more sympathetic to the yes vote.
The no campaign published scare stories in 1979 about Linwood, Bathgate & Ravenscraig etc shutting down in the event of independence. The Tories did a great job of saving all that industry for us.
Scottish independence sounds good to me as long as they will take RBS as part of the deal
RBS is coming to London. They have said all along they don’t want to be in a small country like Scotland.
The vast majority of jobs at rbs is in london and outside Scotland. International shareholder base too. Vast majority of rbs income from sources outside Scotland. Country of registration is Scotland indeed but that is a legal technicality not an argument for any one country to somehow have ‘ownership’ of corporate legal entity.
Looks like any debate on this from the BBC is going to be, er….Well, some of you might already have seen this pic.twitter.com/4ABq6YE8zr
@ Foxcubsdad.
“my position could accurately be described as heart in favour head against.”
Had I the vote (I’m of Scots descent on my father’s side, but have always lived in England) that would exactly express my position, but I’m powerfully persuaded by Richard’s argument from the heart, given above, but with two provisos.
1) An independent Scotland MUST have its own currency (NOT the Euro) and Bank (Scotland already has about 4 issuing Banks, one of which could be nationalized, and made into a Bank of Scotland. Or simply start from scratch)
2) Set against that must be the reality of the benefits of the Union – and here I speak with some experience, for my wife is Czech, and we experienced together the picture painted by Cameron: for we visited Czechoslovakia for Christmas 1992, and came home in January 1993, from the Czech Republic, which had severed its union with Slovakia.
The majority of Czechs and Slovaks continue to regret, even grieve over, the “Velvet Divorce”, but as Richard says regarding Ireland, very few Czechs and Slovaks (particularly Slovaks, who had NEVER in all their history been a nation before, except as a mere puppet state under Hitler) would wish to see Czechoslovakia re-consituted.
However, as I’ve said before, if Scotland goes, Wales will seek to follow, as would the old Northumbria, if given the chance, eager to cast off the shackles of the corrupt and diseased body politic Richard speaks of – you know – the one that hangs round the neck of the independent “kingdom” of the City of London, a kingdom that sees increasing “uncivilization” the further you go from it. In truth, almost anything outside the Home Counties is written off as useless appendages by the rump Richard is describing, when he says “A soul sold to the devil of money grubbing, I suspect. And that is no basis for a nation state.”
“In truth, almost anything outside the Home Counties is written off as useless appendages by the rump Richard is describing”
You said it – and I am from London and the SE. How does anywhere north of the Watford Gap or west of Bristol benefit from the Westminster government any more?
We have an economic crisis caused by the finance sector and its fellow travellers in politics based in London, but the rest of the country ends up paying for it.
And that means large areas of the UK that suffered from Thatcher’s de-industrialisation policies in the 1980’s.
This is what baffles me about arguments for independence.
Fine, you don’t like posh English Tories. Plenty of English people don’t either. But this vote is about dissolving a 300 year union. Decisions made in September will (probably) last for a similar period. It seems crazy to vote because of who happens to be temporarily in 10 Downing St.
If the UK was always ruled by a Bullingdon elite you might have a point but it was only a couple of years ago that the UK had been run by Gordon Brown for 13 years (as Chancellor he effectively controlled UK domestic policy since 1997) aided by Darling, Reid, Alexander etc.
As a hypothetical question to you Richard, and to your other readers:
If Salmond promised to model an independent Scotland on the system of another country where that system actually currently exists or which has existed in the last 50 years or so (ie I am not asking about theoretical systems – ones that have been actually tried somewhere, relatively recently), which system would most get your vote if you were Scottish?
Where do you stand, on, say, the achievements in Venezuela or Cuba as models to be copied? It is hard to argue that Chavez and Castro were shy about independence, and giving power back to ordinary people. And putting needs ahead of wants.
Castro wax not a democrat
Of course I could not favour such a system
Chris in Hastings
I think Alex Salmond would be ill-advised to assume the enormous achievements of Chavez in Venezuela could be replicated in Scotland. When Chavez took over Venezuela was an incredibly disunited country. A small proportion of the populace enjoyed all the wealth, while the vast majority lived in horrific poverty. I think there are very few people who’d deny that Chavez improved life to an astonishing degree for everyone in Venezuela. Even his erstwhile political opponents would admit it now.
Regrettably, as is so often the case, Chavez went on too long & never put in place sensible requirements to choose his successor. In fact, I think Chavez took to believing himself so central to Venezuela that he could have no successor!
Chris in Hastings
I think Alex Salmond would also be ill-advised to try to replicate what was done by Castro in Cuba. Castro’s great achievements were a national health service & national education.
To my knowledge, Scottish people expect a national health service & national education, they aren’t going to be WOWed by those accomplishments.
I’ll also be voting yes – not because I’m a rabid nationalist, but because I want the chance to escape from neo-liberal politicians of all stripes. I think we can do better – would that be difficult, when you hear of the Coalitions economic plans for the future of the 99%?
I consider our lack of university fees and prescription charges, and particularly that our NHS uses about 1% of private facilities compared to the nearly 10% (and rising) that England/Wales use. I take these as signs of what we could do if we had more power over ourselves.
I imagine a future where fugitives from a selfish, greedy, uncaring non-society are queuing at the border to enter a frankly more socialist society where it’s one person one vote, not one pound, one vote and where food banks are unknown. We might need a fence…
You may argue that it’s a naive idealistic dream, but would you pass up a chance at it?
I suspect that the main reason Cameron is urging the rest of the world to oppose Independence is that a working, fairer society on his doorstep would be very bad for the effectiveness of his neoliberal propaganda machine. The 99% would get uppity. Can’t have that.
I wonder whether Cameron is actually working for the yes vote. I gather if Scotland leaves the Union it will be almost impossible to elect a Labour government south of the border, and there are no Tory safe seats to lose north of it. The sight of him in London asking non-Scottish Brits to phone our friends in the north seems exactly calculated to persuade any undecided Scots to vote yes.
I had similar thoughts watching the speech
“…and secondly because such concepts as the right to determine your own future are almost impossible to price. For most economists that makes the issue incomprehensible.”
Well, most of them argue for free markets at this point, to allow individuals to price their choices themselves.
Could you explain how your Courageous State takes account of the value of self-determination when choosing to influence/regulate individuals and enterprises?
Have you read it?
The fulfilment of individual potential is at the heart of my philosophy
It is denied to far too many right now
Someone recently recommended that Scotland should do what Ireland did and have their own currency (the punt) but tie it to the pound. That seemed to work well – he said.
My fear is for England which may be condemned to permanent tory rule with the absence of Scottish MPs. However, perhaps that would wake people up here.
As a proponent of Functional Finance / MMT, and intending to vote Yes, I’m hoping that the proposed currency use (UK pound with inevitable monetary policy chains) is merely a transitional choice based on the political knowledge that a Scotish Pound would be a step too far for that first step into the unknown.
However, this assumes that the YES campaigners (Alex Salmond included) are savvy about the true nature of fiat money and the irrelevance of government borrowing and defecits on the economy. I frankly doubt it, however. The economics part of Mr. Salmond’s honours degree probably covered only mainstream theory, which has been controlled via professional structures and financial rewards for decades to be the servant of elite interests. The same applies to the current economic advisors of all the UK political parties (except maybe the Greens).
Don’t worry Carol, there are many reasons to suggest losing Scotland will not lead to perpetual Tory rule.
1. Look at the results at the last election. Scotland accounted for 41 seats and yet in England alone Labour lost over twice that many (87 in total). So without Scotland there could still easily be a Labour (or progressive coalition) governing majority.
2. Let’s not forget the Tory party is also a disunited entity which UKIP is exploiting to its full advantage. Cameron is also intensely disliked by many Tories given his stance on such issues as gay marriage.
3. The media thrives on conflict and so if it were one party rule they would soon drive a wedge between any unity of the governing party – as evidenced by the breakdown of New Labour after the 2005 election. The Tory party has such divergent views it would soon fall apart, probably over Europe.
Scotland will be better off independent. Its a great country that has a high quality of life. The correct taxation of its people, and the ones resident in the rest of the UK will help them to be a great country. America taxes their people worldwide, so can Scotland. Using the Euro will be okay, not great, however their isn’t a positive alternative. If they lower their corporation tax rate, many companies will move to Scotland. Make the area between Edinburgh and Glasgow a high tech area, a bit like Ireland has done.
I’d suggest you start by trying to make the area between Edinburgh and Glasgow into something other than the absolutely worst, most vile, place on God’s earth.
Please it’s a nightmare – stop it. England ‘alone’ would be run for ever by the Tories and UKIP types. We need Scots and Welsh to help balance out the conservative, semi-feudal nature of the English plutocracy re-enforced as they are by their Right Wing press propaganda and home counties tribalism (ie. to them anything beyond the M25 is a little bit frightening unless its a good Redbrick uni for their little Emma, Thomas or Olivia)
Please things will get better Labour are set for 90 + majority and we are going to look more at inequality, disproportional wealth skimming of our utilities,fuel poverty lack of housing for the young. Oh, please do not leave us and seriously this is bigger than Cameron- its the whole dam future of the UK for ever and ever.
No, it will lead to revolution.
Not convinced that is a positive outcome, but….
If people like Boris really think that every year they can make things a little bit worse for the poor until, incrementally, they starve in the streets, they have misunderstood. Boris’s idea that us serfs won’t even be permitted to dirty the streets of London, unless it were to work as cleaners, caterers or personal fitness trainers, misses one important point. There are a lot more of US than there are of THEM. We need to use our votes & not be mislead by the lying press.
Heaven fotbid voters should elect the government THEY want!
This is not true. Scotland has made a difference to the outcome of a UK general election twice since the war. If there is perpetual tory rule in a post independence rUK it will be because that is what the people in that same rUK vote for. Nothing to do with Scots at all. That is democracy, and there is plenty of evidence that it is what the majority in England want. They should have it if they want it. The majority in Scotland does not want it, and so they should not have it. It is really very simple.
Things will not get better under labour for they are plutocrats with no substantive difference between their aims and those of the tories.
It is indeed bigger than Cameron. I have paid serious attention to the campaigns and there is not one single reason for staying in this union so far. Maybe there are such reasons but they have not been put forward
I am not sure I agree with your conclusions on Scottish Independence, but the last two sentences are spot on. And remind of the Troglodytes in Montesquieu’s ‘Lettres persanes’…
“My fear is for England which may be condemned to permanent tory rule with the absence of Scottish MPs.”: Carol Wilcox
This “condemnation” you describe Carol, that would be elections would it?
The Scottish groat has been considered but nixed by senior economists advising the first minister. Too scary, apparently.
The version of independence offered is pretty much the devo max option that was denied as an option on the ballot. As this was widely predicted to be voted for, I assume they are hoping the electorate will see them as equivalent.
I too hope it will be a stepping stone as fiscal/monetary autonomy is the only choice for true independence. I certainly see too many opportunities for mischief from the Bank of England.
Its far from a satisfactory choice, but its a start at least. I can easily see a no vote resulting in the reversal of our current powers by westminster.
Given the options,I’ll be voting yes.
As for the permanent neo-liberal reich in the remaining UK, that would be up to the electorate of that country.
It’s a momentous decision, the people of Scotland could very soon be in control of their own destiny, to precisely the same extent as the people of Greece are now.
The best way Scots can hurt the Tories is to deny them power throughout these islands. After independence Scotland would still be mostly ruled from London Boardrooms.
I have so many thoughts on Scottish Independence. I agree with everything Richard said in his artical. Since the recent polls showed a big swing towards yes the media has been publishing the ‘warning’ and ‘danger’ headlines even more frequently than before.
The power that the media has means I doubt Scotland will get independence. I wish it was just a question of do you want increased childcare or nuclear weapons? But the policital spin on it makes perceiving what kind of country an independent Scottland would be impossible. We may get some clarity before the vote but I doubt it.
We don’t even know what kind of country we will be if we reject independence. Are we going to be in the EU? The timing of the vote is flawed. Can’t it be delayed a few years when we will probably know if the EU implodes or sorts it self out?
What about the changes coming into effect in a few years on how the share of UK total income tax is distributed to Scotland? This is going to make Scotland significantly deteriorate. It faces the choice of cuts to public expenditure or raising the ‘Scottish income tax’ above the rate in the rest of the UK.
On balance, I think independence will allow the scottish economy to become more successful. I was born in Bromley, Kent but will be voting Yes.
Af far as the flag goes, in the event of Scotland getting independence and retaining the pound, could the it be renamed the ‘United Union’ or ‘British Union’ flag? As the EU has a flag we would need one anyway.
Thanks for reading!
We’ve done our bit, I think we have one conservative MP left,and thanks to PR we have 16 conservative MSPs out of 129, which fairly accurately reflects their base north of the border.
Until the electorate in england and wales fully realise how much contempt and hatred held for them by the conservative coalition, we can’t really do much more.
I am under no illusions about the current offer and I am amazed at the timidity of the SNP, but I cannot see it being any worse than the current situation.
As I said, its a start.