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	<title>Comments on: Gibraltar: deliberate obfuscation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/</link>
	<description>Richard Murphy on tax and corporate accountability</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-477977</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-477977</guid>
		<description>Richard, I don't have time to write a full reply right now.

But if I could ask you one quick question first:
Do you oppose competition - in terms of tax regimes? If not, do you not believe that boosts efficiency and is necessary for open markets to actually be open (not simply merged).

Secondly I'm glad you included the UK as a tax haven. [A similar view has been expressed by the OECD of course.]

What I ask you to consider (and keep in mind) is that you are working with understanding of this industry - and of technical definitions.

While an audience that shares your understanding may be your target, even very technical publications are always released into a wider public domain.

To the average person who does not know about this area, the idea that anyone consider large prominent countries as tax havens seems ridiculous.

Returning to Gibraltar. Forget about the IBCs, as you say, they are currently in the process of being phased out. Keep in mind that the lox tax regime is also a huge benefit to local businesses - who face high costs (due to limited room for economy of scale) and increased cross border competition.

The economies of small states ALWAYS work very different from larger ones for these reasons.

Therefore they use their size to their advantage by offering efficiency in both time and cost to compete.

Personally I'm in favour of tax competition. I'm actually in favour of high tax high spend, but I am in favour of tax competition (since ultimately you consider what you get for your taxes as well).

It is just that your use of term that is so misunderstood without explicit definitions and comparisons (against a backdrop where the places is unquestionably moving away from) is not helpful.

i.e. not helpful to true READER UNDERSTANDING for the wider audience, and equally is detrimental to the understanding of the expert reader - as while they might know the technical definitions, their mind can still be influenced by a deeper set uninformed understanding of the meanings of the words.

So, it is not denial. It is a question of potential misrepresentation without qualification of either the terms of the extent and areas where they do not fit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I don&#8217;t have time to write a full reply right now.</p>
<p>But if I could ask you one quick question first:<br />
Do you oppose competition - in terms of tax regimes? If not, do you not believe that boosts efficiency and is necessary for open markets to actually be open (not simply merged).</p>
<p>Secondly I&#8217;m glad you included the UK as a tax haven. [A similar view has been expressed by the OECD of course.]</p>
<p>What I ask you to consider (and keep in mind) is that you are working with understanding of this industry - and of technical definitions.</p>
<p>While an audience that shares your understanding may be your target, even very technical publications are always released into a wider public domain.</p>
<p>To the average person who does not know about this area, the idea that anyone consider large prominent countries as tax havens seems ridiculous.</p>
<p>Returning to Gibraltar. Forget about the IBCs, as you say, they are currently in the process of being phased out. Keep in mind that the lox tax regime is also a huge benefit to local businesses - who face high costs (due to limited room for economy of scale) and increased cross border competition.</p>
<p>The economies of small states ALWAYS work very different from larger ones for these reasons.</p>
<p>Therefore they use their size to their advantage by offering efficiency in both time and cost to compete.</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;m in favour of tax competition. I&#8217;m actually in favour of high tax high spend, but I am in favour of tax competition (since ultimately you consider what you get for your taxes as well).</p>
<p>It is just that your use of term that is so misunderstood without explicit definitions and comparisons (against a backdrop where the places is unquestionably moving away from) is not helpful.</p>
<p>i.e. not helpful to true READER UNDERSTANDING for the wider audience, and equally is detrimental to the understanding of the expert reader - as while they might know the technical definitions, their mind can still be influenced by a deeper set uninformed understanding of the meanings of the words.</p>
<p>So, it is not denial. It is a question of potential misrepresentation without qualification of either the terms of the extent and areas where they do not fit.</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research LLP</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-477497</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research LLP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-477497</guid>
		<description>David

That's absurd.

First of all I have nothing against Gibraltar: I have a lot against all tax havens, the UK included.

Second, Gibraltar is a tax haven@ it still has IBCs and is replacing them with a deliberately low tax regime. This is aimed at a non-resident market. It provides considerable secrecy around their use (although, I concede, not as much as some).

That means it is by any reasonable definition an offshore tax haven.

It's just plain denial to say otherwise.

Richard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David</p>
<p>That&#8217;s absurd.</p>
<p>First of all I have nothing against Gibraltar: I have a lot against all tax havens, the UK included.</p>
<p>Second, Gibraltar is a tax haven@ it still has IBCs and is replacing them with a deliberately low tax regime. This is aimed at a non-resident market. It provides considerable secrecy around their use (although, I concede, not as much as some).</p>
<p>That means it is by any reasonable definition an offshore tax haven.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just plain denial to say otherwise.</p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-477168</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-477168</guid>
		<description>Actually Richard, you are wrong.

Gibraltar DOES share information under the EU Savings Tax Directive with all other member states of the EU - as is required.

Where I think you might be confused is how this applies at present directly between Gibraltar and the UK.

The problem is that the UK &#38; Gibraltar TOGETHER are the one EU member state!

Now as a member state, the requirements apply to both of them with other member states - but NOT between them! (It would not apply between the UK and Gib!)

As a result of this bilateral agreements were reached whereby the same provisions will be introduced between them. However as a transitional measure - for a short fixed period of time - a with holding tax arrangement will apply between them.

This was deemed an appropriate and acceptable transition measure by both the UK and Gibraltar governments as Gibraltar's main competitors in the Financial Services sector are the IoM and Channel Islands. As these places are outside the EU, the savings tax directive does NOT apply to them in the same way as EU countries (inc. Gib). So these other places have a withholding tax arrangement instead. 

However, with regard to other member states, it does apply NATURALLY. Once the transition period is over then the same provisions as under the directive will apply also between the UK and Gibraltar as bilaterally agreed between them.


By the way, I was NOT suggesting that you were alone in a general  anti-off-shore crusade. 

What I was suggesting was that you were determined to attach that label, knowing it to be a negative label, to Gibraltar.

It is very hard to think of any criteria where the term off-shore - in its established meaning - could be said to apply to Gibraltar now adays.

Since labels such as that do have baggage, and what is more, are used to convey information we must be careful to ensure places are not being mislabelled in the world of today.

I maintain that it is self evident from your style of writing that you have an agenda against Gibraltar and have great reluctance to actually examine the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Richard, you are wrong.</p>
<p>Gibraltar DOES share information under the EU Savings Tax Directive with all other member states of the EU - as is required.</p>
<p>Where I think you might be confused is how this applies at present directly between Gibraltar and the UK.</p>
<p>The problem is that the UK &amp; Gibraltar TOGETHER are the one EU member state!</p>
<p>Now as a member state, the requirements apply to both of them with other member states - but NOT between them! (It would not apply between the UK and Gib!)</p>
<p>As a result of this bilateral agreements were reached whereby the same provisions will be introduced between them. However as a transitional measure - for a short fixed period of time - a with holding tax arrangement will apply between them.</p>
<p>This was deemed an appropriate and acceptable transition measure by both the UK and Gibraltar governments as Gibraltar&#8217;s main competitors in the Financial Services sector are the IoM and Channel Islands. As these places are outside the EU, the savings tax directive does NOT apply to them in the same way as EU countries (inc. Gib). So these other places have a withholding tax arrangement instead. </p>
<p>However, with regard to other member states, it does apply NATURALLY. Once the transition period is over then the same provisions as under the directive will apply also between the UK and Gibraltar as bilaterally agreed between them.</p>
<p>By the way, I was NOT suggesting that you were alone in a general  anti-off-shore crusade. </p>
<p>What I was suggesting was that you were determined to attach that label, knowing it to be a negative label, to Gibraltar.</p>
<p>It is very hard to think of any criteria where the term off-shore - in its established meaning - could be said to apply to Gibraltar now adays.</p>
<p>Since labels such as that do have baggage, and what is more, are used to convey information we must be careful to ensure places are not being mislabelled in the world of today.</p>
<p>I maintain that it is self evident from your style of writing that you have an agenda against Gibraltar and have great reluctance to actually examine the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research LLP</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-475751</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research LLP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-475751</guid>
		<description>David

You're wrong

Gibraltar does not share information under the EU Savings Tax Directive for a start

And if you're unaware of it, I'm far from alone. Oxfam, Christian Aid, Action Aid and others are all in this game.

So too is Barack Obama

You're a little out of touch down on the Rock

Richard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David</p>
<p>You&#8217;re wrong</p>
<p>Gibraltar does not share information under the EU Savings Tax Directive for a start</p>
<p>And if you&#8217;re unaware of it, I&#8217;m far from alone. Oxfam, Christian Aid, Action Aid and others are all in this game.</p>
<p>So too is Barack Obama</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a little out of touch down on the Rock</p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-475739</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/20/gibraltar-deliberate-obfuscation/#comment-475739</guid>
		<description>What right do you or anyone else have to demand that Gibraltar be booted out of financial services?

You do know that Gibraltar is regulated to EU stantards, and has recieved positive reports from many inspectors including the IMF, OECD and others.

Gibraltar has full exchange of information with other EU countries.

In short, the only person on this 'offshore' crusade is YOU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What right do you or anyone else have to demand that Gibraltar be booted out of financial services?</p>
<p>You do know that Gibraltar is regulated to EU stantards, and has recieved positive reports from many inspectors including the IMF, OECD and others.</p>
<p>Gibraltar has full exchange of information with other EU countries.</p>
<p>In short, the only person on this &#8216;offshore&#8217; crusade is YOU.</p>
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