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	<title>Comments on: Time to debate the issues</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/</link>
	<description>Richard Murphy on tax and corporate accountability</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6</generator>
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		<title>By: Tax Research LLP</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445723</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research LLP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445723</guid>
		<description>Paul 

That's your subjective interpretation

I stick to mine

And to my call for a change to the rules for small business that will stop this abuse http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2007/08/09/arctic-systems-moving-small-business-taxation-on-in-the-uk/

Richard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul </p>
<p>That&#8217;s your subjective interpretation</p>
<p>I stick to mine</p>
<p>And to my call for a change to the rules for small business that will stop this abuse <a href="http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2007/08/09/arctic-systems-moving-small-business-taxation-on-in-the-uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2007/08/09/arctic-systems-moving-small-business-taxation-on-in-the-uk/</a></p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445708</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445708</guid>
		<description>"nor were they ever seen as an invitation for ritual income splitting for the benefit of some in society, but not all."

All very however. This very thing was brought up by the Labour Party when the independent taxation of spouses was brought in and at that time the government was perfectly happy. If the Labour Party was unhappy with this then rather than demand back taxes and put people's houses at risk it should change the law. If the Labour Party was unhappy then why did the BusinessLink Website recommend using a spouses tax allowance - until this was pointed out to the Treasury team during Jones v Garnett.

Further was a change even required - There is two ways the government could deal with this - Disallow certain parties to Income Shift, or allow everyone to. A number of our competitor countries actually allow it and allow families to file joint returns for a husband and wife (so if your allowance is £5K they are allowed £10K, together). There are important social benefits in encouraging families.

In addition, their were a number of years that were under investigation in Jones v Garnett and HMRC gave up on the previous years because having investigated them it saw nothing wrong. So if nothing was wrong when originally investigated why did the Tresury suddenly change their mind and decide they was (they gave up when it got to court - what if this was someone who could not afford the fight). Maybe this is because they did decide to ignore what the law said and change the rules without going through parliament.


The government changed the rules and decided on someone who was in a position to fight back. Not everyone can. They tried that to</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;nor were they ever seen as an invitation for ritual income splitting for the benefit of some in society, but not all.&#8221;</p>
<p>All very however. This very thing was brought up by the Labour Party when the independent taxation of spouses was brought in and at that time the government was perfectly happy. If the Labour Party was unhappy with this then rather than demand back taxes and put people&#8217;s houses at risk it should change the law. If the Labour Party was unhappy then why did the BusinessLink Website recommend using a spouses tax allowance - until this was pointed out to the Treasury team during Jones v Garnett.</p>
<p>Further was a change even required - There is two ways the government could deal with this - Disallow certain parties to Income Shift, or allow everyone to. A number of our competitor countries actually allow it and allow families to file joint returns for a husband and wife (so if your allowance is £5K they are allowed £10K, together). There are important social benefits in encouraging families.</p>
<p>In addition, their were a number of years that were under investigation in Jones v Garnett and HMRC gave up on the previous years because having investigated them it saw nothing wrong. So if nothing was wrong when originally investigated why did the Tresury suddenly change their mind and decide they was (they gave up when it got to court - what if this was someone who could not afford the fight). Maybe this is because they did decide to ignore what the law said and change the rules without going through parliament.</p>
<p>The government changed the rules and decided on someone who was in a position to fight back. Not everyone can. They tried that to</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research LLP</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445676</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research LLP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445676</guid>
		<description>Andrew

I have some sympathy with what you say, but only some.

The requirement that 'You shall not beat your wife' does require considerable definition if an equitable basis of interpretation of the law is not to be used (and I note you oppose that). 

When definition is required loopholes creep in.

That's why I want a GANTIP and a equitable interpretation. Without espousing these I ma not sure your position is credible.

Richard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew</p>
<p>I have some sympathy with what you say, but only some.</p>
<p>The requirement that &#8216;You shall not beat your wife&#8217; does require considerable definition if an equitable basis of interpretation of the law is not to be used (and I note you oppose that). </p>
<p>When definition is required loopholes creep in.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I want a GANTIP and a equitable interpretation. Without espousing these I ma not sure your position is credible.</p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445673</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445673</guid>
		<description>Whilst being sympathetic to the consequence complained of, this line of argument over the will of parliament does not work in my opinion and, if anything, is counter productive.  In considering the larger corporates, there is no mileage in saying that deductions in arriving at PCTCT for such items as capital allowances and, in recent years, pension deficit funding, are not the will of the legislature.  They are very patently are, and we have hundreds of pages to prove the case.  

The more sustainable approach is that the will of parliament produces undesirable consequences because the executive cannot formulate coherent policy.  

Directing the case towards those that make the laws, and often so badly in terms of the consequences, would be seen by many as a far more rationale and sustainable way of addressing, and arguably, correcting the consequence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst being sympathetic to the consequence complained of, this line of argument over the will of parliament does not work in my opinion and, if anything, is counter productive.  In considering the larger corporates, there is no mileage in saying that deductions in arriving at PCTCT for such items as capital allowances and, in recent years, pension deficit funding, are not the will of the legislature.  They are very patently are, and we have hundreds of pages to prove the case.  </p>
<p>The more sustainable approach is that the will of parliament produces undesirable consequences because the executive cannot formulate coherent policy.  </p>
<p>Directing the case towards those that make the laws, and often so badly in terms of the consequences, would be seen by many as a far more rationale and sustainable way of addressing, and arguably, correcting the consequence.</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research UK / Questions for Bill Dodwell</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445668</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research UK / Questions for Bill Dodwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445668</guid>
		<description>[...] Dodwell, head of tax at Deloittes UK ha suggested my work on the Tax Gap is &#8216;just rubbish&#8217;. Well, it&#8217;s a free country, and he has a right to his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dodwell, head of tax at Deloittes UK ha suggested my work on the Tax Gap is &#8216;just rubbish&#8217;. Well, it&#8217;s a free country, and he has a right to his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research LLP</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445639</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research LLP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445639</guid>
		<description>GeorgeB

I disagree.

It was said that the rules would not be used to prevent reasonable income splitting.

But nor were they ever seen as an invitation for ritual income splitting for the benefit of some in society, but not all.

I think HMRC were right and consistent on this issue.

Richard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GeorgeB</p>
<p>I disagree.</p>
<p>It was said that the rules would not be used to prevent reasonable income splitting.</p>
<p>But nor were they ever seen as an invitation for ritual income splitting for the benefit of some in society, but not all.</p>
<p>I think HMRC were right and consistent on this issue.</p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>By: GeorgeB</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445627</link>
		<dc:creator>GeorgeB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445627</guid>
		<description>While your comment "And if HM Revenue &#38; Customs really believed that parliament intended independent taxation of spouses to legitimise income shifting..." sounds reasonable, I seem to remember that the chancellor of the day accepted that, while it was not the intention, it was an acceptable result of the legislation. 

If subsequent govt's decide, after such a long time, that it's no longer an acceptable result then they should use due process and be upfront and clear about it. They tried to implement by stealth and got caught out, now they want to try their usual legislative 'lash-up'.


George</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While your comment &#8220;And if HM Revenue &amp; Customs really believed that parliament intended independent taxation of spouses to legitimise income shifting&#8230;&#8221; sounds reasonable, I seem to remember that the chancellor of the day accepted that, while it was not the intention, it was an acceptable result of the legislation. </p>
<p>If subsequent govt&#8217;s decide, after such a long time, that it&#8217;s no longer an acceptable result then they should use due process and be upfront and clear about it. They tried to implement by stealth and got caught out, now they want to try their usual legislative &#8216;lash-up&#8217;.</p>
<p>George</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research LLP</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445336</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research LLP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445336</guid>
		<description>Far from it.

It is not in the interest of the clients of the accountancy profession to abuse the tax systems of the world. 

Maybe you have never suffered a tax investigation. I used to run them for clients (usually clients of other firms of accountants who had suffered their bad advice). If you have suffered a tax investigation you'll know why abusing tax systems is not a good idea.

But accountants don't add that risk warning when selling their avoidance services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Far from it.</p>
<p>It is not in the interest of the clients of the accountancy profession to abuse the tax systems of the world. </p>
<p>Maybe you have never suffered a tax investigation. I used to run them for clients (usually clients of other firms of accountants who had suffered their bad advice). If you have suffered a tax investigation you&#8217;ll know why abusing tax systems is not a good idea.</p>
<p>But accountants don&#8217;t add that risk warning when selling their avoidance services.</p>
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		<title>By: pewkatchoo</title>
		<link>http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445330</link>
		<dc:creator>pewkatchoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/06/05/time-to-debate-the-issues/#comment-445330</guid>
		<description>So what you are suggesting is that the accountancy profession needs to consider its image above the needs of their clients. Interesting take on providing a service.   :???:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what you are suggesting is that the accountancy profession needs to consider its image above the needs of their clients. Interesting take on providing a service.   <img src='http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif' alt=':???:' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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